(And the post in which we sincerely apologize to every member of the LGBTQIA community)
(all photos in the post taken by Kailey Shakespear.)
(Admin note: You can view a copy of the original post from five years ago here. A copy was made because the original post was causing a lot of strain on the server. Nothing has been edited or changed, just copied over.)
Five-and-a-half years ago my wife, Lolly, and I sat together at a hotel in Las Vegas, nervously composing a coming out post that would, unbeknownst to us, change our lives in nearly every way imaginable. We were so, so nervous. But we were sweet and earnest, and we had been feeling the cosmic drive to do this for months . . . we knew, without a doubt, that it was what we were supposed to do, even though it felt totally out of left field, and we had no idea why. Our post went massively viral, and we were featured on shows and newspapers around the globe.
That act of authenticity brought many of you who will read this into our lives. Finally, we were able to live authentically, instead of this life of quiet struggle we had existed in for a decade. Finally we were able to be honest with our community, our friends, our colleagues, our families about our marriage, and about me—that I am a gay man, and that Lolly and I had gotten married knowing this about me. That I always have been gay. That it was not something I had chosen—it just was— but that I loved my wife and my life.
Finally, Lolly and I were out of the closet.
And it has been wonderful. The five years since that post have been largely the same as the previous ten years—deeply wonderful, beautiful years, filled with family-connection and love. We’ve continued to raise our girls. We’ve built memories. We’ve grown. We’ve had family home evenings every single Monday, prayed together every night, and read scriptures together every morning as we eat breakfast as a family. We’ve gone to church and filled church callings and hung out with friends and taken our girls on approximately four hundred million play dates. Lolly and I have loved each other deeply and generously, and we’ve woven a tapestry of beautiful connection and communication together that I daresay stands up against the connection and communication of any marriage anywhere.
In fact, it’s the depth of that connection—and the unrelenting transparency with each other that we share—the genuine, honest, loving nature of our communication with one another—that leads us to where we are today—to this very difficult, very unexpected post.
Today, we need to let you know that Lolly and I are divorcing.
I can imagine that reading that sentence will evoke a lot of emotions in anyone who has heard about us over the last five years. (And believe me, there are a lot of emotions—some of them very devastating–as we write those words.)
I can only imagine the range of reactions to this news we are sharing.
Surely, there will be those who are amused or overjoyed. (One of the most common things that brings people to our blog from Google these days is the phrase “are Josh and Lolly weed still married.”) There will be those who feel Schadenfreude and who might relish in our pain, and in the embarrassment we might feel in having to own up to our current reality. If that is you, I respect your reaction—I’ve reacted similarly to distant events in the past myself, and I know how it goes. I think this is human nature.
But along with this, there will be people who are very hurt, very saddened, very disturbed, very troubled, or whose very faith might be challenged by the sentence above. If that is you, I yearn for Lolly and me to be able to sit with you. Cheesy as this is, I wish we could all hold hands as the solemnity of what I just said above washes over us, so that we could then lean over and tell you: “it’s going to be okay.” Because it is.
We are going to do our level best to explain how a marriage as beautiful and sweet and loving as ours has been can also be a marriage that—for very legitimate, important reasons, and what we feel is the urging of God himself—needs to end.
In our original coming out post, what we were sharing was so complex that, to try to be as efficient as possible, we went with a question/answer format. Because I’m a sucker for things going full circle, and because we’ve spent the last four months telling people this news and getting a feel for the most common questions, we’re going to structure this post the same way.
1. Okay, wait. So what happened? I thought things were going so well…
So did we. And really, things were going so well.
Our marriage was absolutely beautiful as we described above. Yet it contained an undercurrent of pain that we were not able to see clearly or acknowledge for many years, which made continuing in it impossible.
Thus, the answer to this question is impossible to describe in linear fashion. Instead, I can tell you that there were three main sub-currents or tributaries that fed into where we are today, all of which culminated “coincidentally” on the day of my last blog post, as it turns out: the Fall Equinox—the day in which my denial crumbled, and the internal defenses allowing me to live my life as a gay man in a straight marriage shattered, mercifully and irretrievably.
I’ll share those three tributaries.
First: Love for the LGBTQ population: The first tributary that God used to bring us here was our love for the LGBTQ population. When we came out in 2012, Lolly and I had very little exposure to other gay people besides myself. Our post went viral in the very same year I opened my private practice, and suddenly we were thrust into the world of LGBTQ Mormons. And what we saw as the years moved forward was at once inspiring and utterly heartbreaking.
We got to know many, many people. We heard their stories. We met children, youths as young as 13 years old, so heartbroken by what they were feeling and what they were being told by their faith community—kids with no hope for love in the future if they wanted to be acceptable to their church and family. Young bright faces who were being told not to love who they fell in love with, looking up to us as some kind of beacon of hope. Our understanding of this issue changed with every person we met, with every single story we heard. We went from thinking this was an issue that affected a few burdened souls like ourselves to understanding more and more that this issue actually touches almost every life. Nearly everyone you know either is LGBTQ or has a first-degree relative who is. Many, many millions of Americans are LGBTQ. And hundreds of thousands (and possibly more than a million depending on the statistics you look at) of Mormons are LGBTQ. It affects so many people. Close relatives of ours have come out. Two of the seminary students I taught the year we posted our post have come out (and I didn’t have a terribly high number of students).
You see, LGBTQ people aren’t “the world”—we aren’t outsiders that the Mormon Church needs to protect itself from. We are you. We are students sitting in a seminary class, and the seminary teacher at the front of the class. We are the hurt youth pouring out his or her heart in a bishop’s office, and we are sometimes the bishop himself, with a painful secret guarded carefully, eating away at his heart. As our awareness and love of the LGBTQ contingent increased, our hearts were softened to their struggles, and our understanding of the Gospel of Christ, of mercy, of the atonement, and of God’s love and intentions for His LGBTQ children were forever altered, little by little, by Him, in the temple and in sacred spaces, in ways that felt as tender as they sometimes felt radical.
Second: Love of self as a gay person. The second tributary was related. About three years ago, I finally saw how important it was to love myself, to truly love myself as a gay man. It happened when my dear friend Ben Shafer (who himself is straight) turned to me one day and said “Josh, you realize your sexual orientation is beautiful, right? Not just tolerable. It’s beautiful . . .” I could hardly even register what he was trying to say. “What do you mean?” I asked. I couldn’t wrap my mind around it. “What about the fact that it’s a biological aberration?” I challenged. “I mean, I get that It’s not an abomination like they used to say when I was a kid. But what about it being something so obviously not what God or biology intended? I’ve just always believed that I was meant to be straight, and that God will fix me someday so that I fit in with the rest of His children. I’ve always believed I was a broken straight person . . .”
And it was as I said those last words that my therapist-brain kicked and listened to the words coming out of my mouth. And I was stunned. People who view themselves as fundamentally broken, I knew, are not healthy. What I had just said was not healthy. Yet, part of me remained unconvinced. “But what about biology? What about homosexuality makes any sense at all? Why would it even exist? How could you find it to be beautiful?”
We went on like this for a long time, and I challenged Ben, sometimes with a bit of anger, as my entire concept of self, harmful as it was, was challenged by his persistent love and acceptance. I made him explain it as clearly as he could, in various ways. “How could an aberration be beautiful,” I was insisting. “How?” He finally thought of two analogies that broke through my resistance. The first was eyes. Blue eyes, he pointed out, were an aberration form the norm. Dark eyes were the biological default in humans, and blue eyes were an aberration, a genetic defect even. Yet some consider them to be very beautiful. Then he moved on to the second example. “Josh, there’s beauty in variation. So much of what we find beautiful is variation! Like, look at the Grand Canyon. People travel for thousands and thousands of miles to see the Grand Canyon and its majestic beauty. And what makes it so beautiful? It’s an aberration. It is a variation of the norm. And we love it.”
At last it clicked in, tentatively. Was it possible that my sexual orientation was beautiful? That it was beautiful in the same way blue eyes can be beautiful? In the same way the Grand Canyon is majestic and lovely, attracting admirers from around the world? Could it be that my sexual orientation wasn’t a mistake? That it was part of the diversity and variety that brings nuance to our planet and to humanity? And that God meant it to be that way?
That night I talked to Lolly and told her all Ben had said, still with a vein of skepticism. “Can you believe he said that?” was the feeling behind my words. And she sat for a moment thinking, then said something that surprised us both. “Josh, Ben is right. You aren’t just a broken straight person. Your gayness is a part of who you are. And your sexual orientation is beautiful. You are as God intended you to be.” Though we had never fully embraced these ideas as reality before, we felt the spirit confirm them powerfully in that moment. The truth of Lolly’s words rang in our bodies.
And if I wasn’t a broken straight person, and my sexual orientation was beautiful—if in fact I wasn’t a mistake–what did that mean for us and for our marriage? At the time, the implications didn’t matter to us. We had both promised to be together, to be a family. We are both true to our word, and we both adored in many ways the life we’d created together. We assumed God would never lead us to feel otherwise. But we were suddenly very, very interested in making sure that other LGBT people felt the beauty of their sexual orientation just like we had come to know the beauty of mine. And we were suddenly able to see more clearly the pain that my sexual orientation brought to our marriage. It hurt us both very deeply, and we spent many long nights holding one another and weeping as we thought of the decades to come for us, neither of us experiencing real romantic love. We were determined to work hard to help make sure that nobody else felt pressured to enter into marriages like ours, or had to feel the intense pain our love for each other brought us during those long, dark nights.
Third: the death of my mom. The third tributary that led us here was my mom’s death a year-and-a-half ago. It was after her death that we were no longer able to be sexually intimate. Grief has that affect on a lot of people—it often affects libido. But for me, as the months after my mommy’s passing continued to tick by, combined with all I’d recently learned about my own identity as a gay man, and what God really thought of me, and the beauty and legitimacy of my sexual orientation, I simply was unable to authentically engage in heterosexual sex again. This was very disturbing to both Lolly and me. We both hoped for a time that I’d be able to somehow function sexually like I had before. But, looking back on it now, it’s clear: so much of that was the denial. So much of that sexual activity was a belief that deep down, somewhere in me, I was actually straight, and that having sex with a woman brought me closer, somehow, to who I was always meant to be. Now, though, I knew that it did the opposite. It brought me away from who I am. It was an act of incongruence. That while sex had served to complement in some ways the beautiful connection Lolly and I shared, more than that it was an act that distanced me from the core of myself. And after my mom’s death, something in me just shifted. Seeing the woman who bore me there in that wooden box—feeling and knowing the reality of death and the shortness of life—rendered me somehow incapable of telling myself the half-lies required for me to believe that sex with a woman was okay for me, and that allowed me to ignore the ways sex with a woman was hurtful, was dishonoring on an intrinsic level, to the core of who I am.
So those were the three tributaries that we can identify that God used to guide us to this point. Not one of these three things led us to think “hey, I know of a good solution to these complex problems! Divorce!” It wasn’t nearly as simple as that, and Lolly and I—both of us being deeply committed, deeply idealistic, and deeply devoted people—had no intention of ever breaking the covenants we made together in the temple. To do so was unthinkable, as in, it literally never even crossed either of our minds in a serious way. Instead, these things set the stage for what God Himself was going to ask of us.
2. In your original coming out post, so much of what you said seemed to align with the Mormon church’s stance on the issue of homosexuality. Is that different now?
Let me see if I can explain this.
I have spent my entire life conforming to every standard of the LDS faith because I believed it was what God wanted me to do.
I believed this because every mentor, every exemplar, every religious teacher, every therapist, every leader I ever grew up listening to and trusting told me that that was the only way I could return to live with God. There was an emphasis on “perfect obedience” and yet, over the course of my lifetime, the list of things said by these trusted leaders about my sexual orientation was profoundly inconsistent and confusing. These individuals told me, sometimes implicitly and sometimes explicitly, that:
1. My sexual orientation wasn’t real
2. My sexual orientation was evil
3. My sexual orientation was an abomination
4. My sexual orientation was tantamount to bestiality and just shy of murder
5. My sexual orientation was a crime against nature
6. My sexual orientation was just a feeling
7. My sexual orientation was very small–merely a temptation and a tendency
8. My sexual orientation was something so huge and dangerous that it led to Sodom and Gomorrah’s destruction and could lead to the downfall of civilization
9. My sexual orientation could change in this life if I had enough faith
10. My sexual orientation was a “trial” to bear
11. My sexual orientation maybe couldn’t change in this life after all
12. My sexual orientation could be managed with faith
13. My sexual orientation could be endured
14. My sexual orientation was my own fault (for, as stated in The Miracle of Forgiveness written by the Mormon prophet, Spencer W. Kimball: “Many have been misinformed that they are powerless in the matter, not responsible for the tendency, and that ‘God made them that way.’ This is as untrue as any of the diabolical lies Satan has concocted. It is blasphemy. Man is born in the image of God. Does the pervert think God to be ‘that way?’”—which was the quote that finally made me, as a 14-year-old reading those words alone in my room, throw the book across the room in horror. It was the word “pervert” that really shook me—I knew I hadn’t brought gayness upon myself and that I was not a pervert, even at that age)
15. My sexual orientation was NOT okay to have and needed to be rooted out (The Miracle of Forgiveness even recommends a type of counseling that will help, claiming many had changed)
16. My homosexual feelings WERE okay to have because they can never change, but were never okay to act on
17. It was not okay to be referred to as “gay” but instead only as “Same sex attracted”
18. Homosexual feelings should never lead to a person identifying himself/herself with the word “gay” as a noun
19. It IS okay to be referred to as “gay” but only in certain circumstances…
. . . and on and on and on.
I could keep going, but hopefully you see the point. These mixed, uninformed messages all came out during the course of my lifetime. Sometimes, they said the exact opposite of what was said before. And yet, I was instructed, continually, to listen to the men saying these things and obey what they were saying, and that if I didn’t, I was faithless and apostate.
That is a problem. While I can absolutely accept that the men who said this wide array of often damaging things were called of God, I think it’s clear from this list that the people that lead the LDS church 1. often share opinions about subjects like this, and not necessarily the will of God and 2. often change those opinions over time and 3. are sometimes totally inaccurate in their assessment of social issues. And I mean no disrespect as I point out this obvious reality.
The thing is, for people who are not gay or LGTBTQ it might feel like church leaders should have room to express and explore opinions like this over time, even in General Conference, and that it it’s okay that sometimes those opinions aren’t accurate in the long run. But for the lesbian girl in the back row of General Conference, wondering what her bleak future could possibly look like as a member of the church? For the sweet 14 year old boy reading a book by a past prophet/church president in his spare time because he wanted to be a better person and do what was right? These shifting opinions and incorrect, often psychologically damaging utterances are more than a thought exercise. This is our lives. Our futures. Our hopes and dreams. And so when you get mixed messaging from leaders about something so personal and so relevant, eventually you realize you can’t rely on those flimsy, topsy-turvy opinions to direct your life. You realize it rests upon you to get your own answers from God himself, very much in the spirit of Joseph Smith and his prayer in the Sacred Grove.
It was not until my 30’s that I even attempted to seek my own answers, and I mean really seek. This felt imperative when I became a professional psychotherapist and had to assist others with these issues. As I did this, and sought research to help clients, I began to realize that there was actual science around this issue, and that that science actually made the statistical difference between gay people beginning to live a healthy life, and gay people exhibiting symptoms that, if not treated, would go from severe chronic depression/anxiety to psychosomatic illness to, eventually, death.
For me, though, it all came down to the people I met with–the actual human beings who were coming to my office. They would come and sit down with me, and they would tell me their stories. These were good people, former pastors, youth leaders, relief society presidents, missionaries, bishops, Elder’s Quorum presidents, and they were . . . there’s no other way to say this. They were dying. They were dying before my eyes. And they would weep in desperation—after years, decades, of trying to do just as they had been instructed: be obedient, live in faith, have hope. They would weep with me, and ask where the Lord was. They would sob. They would wonder where joy was. As a practitioner, it became increasingly obvious: the way the church handled this issue was not just inconvenient. It didn’t make things hard for LGBTQIA people. It became more and more clear to me that it was actually hurting them. It was killing them.
Around this time, a dear friend of mine—a lesbian I adore—called me. Her voice was clipped and panicked. “Josh, I, uh . . . I need your help. I’m thinking of killing myself. I want to die. I can’t do it anymore . . .”
Guys, this person is an incredible human being. This person’s faith was rock solid. If you knew her, you would see a pillar of strength, of will, of resolve. She is one of the strongest people I know. This is not someone who is easily offended, or was not trying, or who “didn’t have an eternal perspective.” Think of the strongest person you know: that’s who this is equivalent of.
Lolly and I went to see her immediately. When we got there, she played with my girls for a while, and then she and I went on a walk. She was so physically weak, she could barely stand. I will never forget the feeling of physically holding this strong woman up as we walked around a yard.
This is what the church’s current stance does to LGBTQIA people. It actually kills them. It fills them with self-loathing and internalized homophobia, and then provides little to no help when the psychosomatic symptoms set in, instead reacting to this unexpected by-product (after all, living the gospel isn’t supposed to bring misery and death! It’s supposed to bring immeasurable joy! Right?) with aphorisms like “have more faith,” or “have an eternal perspective” or “be grateful.” And the LGBTQIA person is left even further alone, now having been shamed by having it implied that their unhappiness and lack of health is their own fault because they aren’t being righteous enough, or trying hard enough. And so, they try harder. And they get sicker. And the cycle continues. It is a sick, pathological spiral. Worst of all, and what amounts to the very crux of the problem: the church also deprives them—us—of attachment, and a natural, verified, studied reaction to attachment blockade is suicidality.
I know this is true on a personal level.
Probably the most motivating factor of all that got me to actually really consider what God had been telling us for a while was my recognition of my own internalized homophobia—the layers of disgust and self-loathing I felt for myself that I was in denial of—and the way that lead to my own suicidal ideation.
Please understand my context. Suicide is a very real thing for my family. My Grandpa Woody’s grandfather, uncle and son all took their own lives. Most recently, on my mission, I was horrified when my mom called me to let me know my poet-uncle that I’d always looked up to jumped off the Golden Gate Bridge. It was in this context, seeing my family history of suicide, that my denial was stripped away as I started to really look at the fact that I had regular suicidal ideation. Guys, my life was beautiful in every way. My children, my wife, my career, my friends. It was filled with so much joy. The things I talked about in my coming out post in 2012 weren’t false. The joy I felt was real! The love I felt was real, but something in me wanted to die.
It’s the thing that wants to die in all of us when we don’t have hope for attachment to a person we are oriented towards. It’s actually a standard part of human attachment: when we don’t have attachment—and have no hope of attachment–our brain tells us we need to die.
My suicidality was not connected to depression. That’s how my mind could hide it from me. With no context and no warning, I would occasionally be brushing my teeth or some such mundane task and then be broadsided with a gut-wrenching, vast emptiness I can’t put into words, that felt as deep as my marrow–and I would think in a panic “I’m only 37. I’m only 37. How can I last five more decades?” That thought—the thought of having to live five more decades, would fill me with terror. It was inconceivable for a few moments.
And then it would pass.
But the other thing I hadn’t been looking at was something I read, with horror, in a text message I sent to a dear friend during my week in Jacksonville. By the time I read what I had sent, the denial had broken down. Lolly was sitting next to me, holding me as I wept, and I was reading these text messages to her, and it felt like reading the words of another person, yet I also knew it was true:
The text I had sent one week earlier said: I have thought of putting a gun in my mouth more times than I can count.
And it’s true. Even now, I can taste the cool metal of the pistol in my mouth from those fantasies.
Do you realize how wrong it is that I have had to face the following cost/benefit analysis: if I stay in my marriage then I won’t disrupt my daughters’ sense of continuity. But I also might take my own life. And if I did die, wouldn’t that end up being WAY worse for them in the long run . . .? Is it worth the risk?
And I want to make a definitive point here. This risk for death is higher, statistically, for any person who has no hope of orientational attachment—not to mention the higher risk attendant to internalized homophobia/transphobia. This is not just the case for me. This is the case for any LGBTQIA person who chooses, or is pressured, to forego human attachment. Your gay brother. Your Lesbian cousin. Your Trans nephew. They are all, by very definition, at higher risk of death if they are choosing to forego attachment for any religious or cultural reason. Literally.
In the end, the correct choice is obvious. We choose the option that makes sure people stay alive.
We should always choose the option that makes sure people stay alive.
I wish LDS people had more modeling of this.
This brings us to the next question:
3. You keep saying you were in denial but I don’t understand? What were you in denial of?
My denial hid itself really, really well.
One of the main things I internally lied to myself about was my level of attraction to Lolly, both physically and romantically. I remember being interviewed by Nightline five years ago and at one point being asked if I found Lolly sexually attractive. I said “yes.” And I wasn’t lying—I believed that was true. But I was in denial, meaning that there were parts of that question or issue that I didn’t allow myself to acknowledge or understand. What I told myself was something along the lines of, “Yes, when we have sex I get an erection and I find her beautiful and I’ve had an orgasm during sex with her hundreds of times and I love her dearly and we connect emotionally like gangbusters and have sex, with orgasms, often, so the answer to this question is ‘yes.’”
But there were some MAJOR holes in that logic that I wouldn’t let myself look at, and MAJOR problems I simply didn’t understand existed. For one, I had never, not one time in my life, allowed myself to have a developmentally appropriate, reciprocated romantic crush with a person I was attracted to who could like me back. I had never held hands with a person I was attracted to; I’d never had a first kiss; I’d never danced with someone I was attracted to at a dance; I’d never been asked ‘who I liked’ in a way that allowed me to even think about ‘who I liked”; I’d never even felt the chemistry of bumping into someone who I was attracted to and who might be attracted to me, the casual grazing of hands that sends a tiny spark of electricity through both people—the simplest of things. So what possible frame of reference did I have for what love and attraction felt like in a romantic and sexual relationship?
I had never, not once, been told it was okay to be attracted to someone I was attracted to, and then allowed to feel that attraction. So when I held Lolly’s hand and casually liked it, or kissed her and had a vague sexual stirring cuz, hey, two human bodies were doing the kissing thing, it was very easy to believe that these tiny stirrings—stirrings two straight people of the same gender might feel if they touched each others’ bodies or felt comfortable holding hands—were romantic and sexual feelings, or at least were some lesser approximation of those things. How would I have ever known otherwise? I knew I was sexually attracted to men’s bodies, sure, and not really visually attracted to women’s bodies, including Lolly’s. I gave myself that one. But the rest? All the other trappings? I allowed myself to believe that there were levels of attraction and connection on a sexual and romantic level that weren’t actually there. Lolly often said “something is wrong” in our intimate relationship, and I poo pooed it. She could tell something was missing—she had grown up straight, and she knew something was missing. I was none the wiser.
4. Did you fall in love with someone? Was there infidelity?
A personal question, but I can see why people would want to know. It would probably be easier for some people to process this if there were some specter, some secret thing that explained why this is happening. But, there isn’t. No, I did not fall in love with anyone else. In fact, there was never any infidelity on either mine or Lolly’s part at any point in our marriage. Gay love was honestly the furthest thing from my mind when my denial crumbled all around me. (Which was kind of the point.)
5. What about Lolly? What does she think of all that is happening?
Best friends forever
Let’s let Lolly speak for herself.
Hi guys. Lolly here, sharing the deepest parts of my heart. Just like last time.
Back in September, Josh and I realized together, crying in each other’s arms, that the best thing for both of us, and our children, would be to end our marriage. It was heartbreaking and it was not a decision we took lightly.
For me, giving my whole heart to Josh while knowing that he did not love me the way a man loves a woman has always been devastating. We were best friends, but he never desired me, he never adored me, he never longed for me. People who read our previous post might be confused because we mention having a robust sex life. That was true. We put forth a lot of effort and were “mechanically” good at sex—and it did help us to feel intimate, and for a time that closeness did help us to feel content in our sex life—but I don’t remember him ever looking at me with passion in his eyes.
After talking about this with my sister-in-law, she said, “but you guys have such a special relationship. You’re intimate in so many other ways. Believe me, sex is not worth throwing away the connection that you two have.” From the outside looking in, I can see why she would think that, but the truth is our relationship was missing more than just a primal sexual connection . . . it was missing romantic attachment.
Josh has never looked at me with romantic love in his eyes. He has never touched me with the sensitive touch of a lover. Whenever he held me in his arms, it was with a love that was similar to the love of a brother to a sister. That does eventually take its toll on your self-esteem. No matter how much I knew “why” he couldn’t respond to me in the ways a lover responds to a partner, it wears a person down, as if you’re not “good enough” to be loved “in that way.” And what I didn’t realize is that as human beings, we actually need to feel loved in that way with our partners.
This deficit started to mess with my self-esteem. I almost felt if only I could be thinner, prettier, sexier, maybe it would be enough to catch Josh’s eye, to help him want me in the way we need to be wanted by our attachment partners. In reality, Josh was GAY and it had nothing to do with me. This is where it doesn’t make sense. I knew he was gay. I didn’t think his sexual orientation was going to change. I could have been the hottest woman on the planet and he still would not have felt any different toward me. No matter how clear I was on the technicalities of this reality, it was impossible not to internalize his complete lack of attraction toward me. Subconsciously, it was a constant message. You aren’t attractive. You aren’t wanted. You aren’t beautiful. You aren’t a good enough woman.
It was making me unhealthy. I gained a lot of weight. My self-concept was diminishing over time. What was worse, I knew my little girls were watching me as their example of what a woman can be, of what healthy womanhood looked like–and they were also watching my marriage. I knew they were getting messages and concepts from me that were not setting them on a path of self-esteem and self-actualized womanhood. It was breaking my heart to see this.
The truth is, Josh and I didn’t understand how to conceptualize our relationship. We knew we had a deep love for each other, but honestly, neither one of us had ever loved anyone in a true romantic way. We got married so young and had dated so little, neither of us had really experienced what true romantic attachment felt like. It was just a concept to us, and as such we were able to be in denial about it. We told ourselves that our love was similar to that of an elderly couple after infatuation and physical attraction had died away and what remained was a tender bond of love. That was the framework we used to understand our relationship. Using that framework, I was willing to sacrifice that sexual component because Josh was worth it to me.
However, as the years went by, and the holes in our souls grew larger and larger, we realized that our relationship was not like an elderly couple because, although the elderly couple’s sexual relationship had dimmed, their romantic adoration for one another did not. When we wrote our viral post five years ago, we were still stuck in this delusion, thinking that our relationship had no deficits, and that choosing to love was enough. But eventually we realized what we were missing. We realized the thing that so many people had tried to tell us: that we didn’t have romantic attachment. That romantic attachment was essential to a functioning marriage. And that it was something that we never had and, hauntingly, that we never would.
I remember talking to my mom about this and explaining that the void in our relationship was not even really about sex. If it were just about sex, we could handle it. We would be willing, and were willing, to sacrifice that. People can live without sex. Then I asked her what it would be like if she had to marry her best female friend, Joyce, whom she loves dearly. I asked if it would be as fulfilling as her love for my dad because she also loves Joyce. She said, “No, it would be different because I don’t love Joyce in that way.” To which I said, “But you do love her and you could live a nice life. But, would it compare to your life with Dad?” She said “no.” Then I asked if the difference in a life with Joyce and a life with Dad was just about sexuality. Would the only difference in a relationship with Dad and a relationship with Joyce be between having sex with a man versus having sex with a woman? The answer was clearly no. That is because she is not romantically attached to her best friend. And that is what human beings need to be healthy. All of us. Romantic attachment. It’s one of the main purposes of life!
I remember telling my mom, trying to help her understand that this was about so much more than just sex: “if the only thing missing in mine and Josh’s relationship was his sexual attraction to me, it wouldn’t be that big of a deal, right? I mean, especially for me. I’m a heterosexual woman married to a man. In our marriage, I could have sex with a man whenever I wanted! Yet there is always something missing for me. There is a void in our connection and it wasn’t about sex. It is real, and it is damaging to who I am as a person.” And my mom and everyone who loves me can see it.
Platonic love is simply not enough, no matter how much we hoped it was. God designed us to need and want romantic attachment.
One thing that has been interesting to me is how people have reacted when I have told them about our decision to end our marriage and how hard it has been to love Josh with all my heart and to not have him love me back in a romantic way. Almost everyone has said to me, with an air of protective emphasis, “Oh, but Lolly, you deserve to be loved that way! You will find someone else who can love you like that. You deserve to love and be loved in that way!” And I agree with them. The thing that I find interesting is that these are all straight people looking at me, another straight person, and being able to see the injustice of me not experiencing true love. They see that it is wrong that I have never felt that love. They feel it. They can put themselves in my shoes and realize how hard that would be for them. They can see it because it is presented from a straight perspective.
The thing that’s so interesting to me is how few people think of Josh in this way. How few people in his life have ever thought these things about him—things that are so obvious, so clear, so emphatic when talking to another straight person. I mean, isn’t the same true for LGBT people? Shouldn’t we feel the exact same intuitive injustice at the thought of them deserving to be “loved like that”? When the tables are turned and we are talking about LGBTQ individuals, somehow people don’t see the parallels. Why am I, as a straight person, entitled to reciprocal, requited romantic love while an LGBTQ individual is not? I am not sure how a straight person can look at a gay person and say, “I deserve love, but you don’t! If a straight person doesn’t get romantic love it is an injustice. Everybody deserves that kind of love, if you’re straight. But gay people? Well, that’s another story…”
I am asking everyone who knows us to please, please not blame Josh for our marriage ending. I deserve love and so does Josh! This decision was just as much for me as it was for him. While our marriage was beautiful and full of so many wonderful things, it also contained a lot of heartbreak for both of us. The one thing we have learned in the last five years is that no one should be asked to live a life without romantic attachment. All this talk of “love” is actually talk of the basic human need for attachment. It is inhumane. We need it, or at least we need the hope of being able to find it eventually, in order to be healthy.
Being in a marriage where both of us thought we would live a life without ever having romantic connection was getting unbearable. Yet, we could not imagine our lives without each other because we do love each other so deeply. That was hell. Feeling like no matter what we did, we would be suffering. If we stayed together, our souls would be missing a huge part of the human experience. If we separated, our souls would still ache for our best friend. That is why the only thought that brought us peace was the thought of ending our marriage, but still remaining a family. Still raising our kids together.
I love Josh so very much. I do not regret the 15 years we were married. If I had to do it over again, I would not change a thing. I am a better person because he is in my life and he will ALWAYS be in my life. In the Weed family, no one gets kicked out for being who they are, and everyone is allowed to find the kind of attachment they were made for. Josh. Me. Our children. Hopefully our grandchildren. Everyone is of equal worth, no matter who they were born to love, and they will always, always have a place at our table, and I know they will also have a place at the table of Christ. And the way Josh and I are moving forward, together, is the greatest example we can set of those truths.
6. What will happen to your family?
Josh again.
The night Lolly and I realized that the only way to heal the things that had been broken in us by being married, and the thing God was asking us to do, was to separate, we were lying on the couch downstairs, holding each other, sobbing. It was one of the most heartbreaking conversations I’ve ever had. At first, the thought of separation was absolutely anathema—my mind couldn’t even consider the possibility as being viable. As we talked and wept, and looked in horror at what such a decision would mean we were losing, Lolly had a memory come to her. “What about our homestead?” she asked.
When we were in California last year giving a talk together, I had given her a priesthood blessing in which we were told that soon we would acquire a homestead. And that was the word that came—homestead. We had both been intrigued by this. We have wanted to buy a home for many years, and each time we have thought to do so, when we prayed about it, we both got the same answer: wait. This had been the case for over a decade. And now, this blessing had finally indicated that we would buy not only a home, but a homestead where our family could gather for decades to come.
When she said this I was confused for a moment. Yes, what did that mean? Did that mean we weren’t supposed to separate after all? And then, the realization hit me: a homestead is 160 acres! It is not a house, per se, but a property where families can live together, side by side. “Oh my gosh, it said homestead, Loll. Maybe we don’t have to live apart! Maybe we don’t have to break our family up…. ever, and just add future partners to it when the time comes!” The thought was so powerful, so sweet, so right. “I cannot imagine my life without you,” I said. She hugged me as we wept in relief, and said, “Neither can I.” And it was in that moment that I realized we, coincidentally, were positioned the exact same way—lying together on a couch in the living room holding one another—as we were the night in 2002 when I heard a voice in my head say “ask her to marry you,” and I did.
So, this is our plan. We are in no hurry. But we will be acquiring a property that will accommodate our family, and the addition of future partners if that time comes. (Because remember, the thing that is most cruel to religious LGBTQIA folks is not the lack of partners, but the lack of hope for a partner—that is the thing that makes them want to die. Not the loneliness, per se, but the decades and decades before them with no hope of attachment. It is for this reason that comparisons of gay people to simply single people who have not married yet are so woefully lacking in nuance. I once heard the difference between these groups stated this way and it’s always stuck with me: single Mormons go to bed every night pleading with the Lord that they will fall in love with someone tomorrow; gay Mormons go to bed every night pleading with the Lord that they will never fall in love with someone.)
8. Have you told your girls? What has their reaction been?
The Weeds
We’ll have Lolly answer this question.
Hi guys. Lolly again.
To answer this, I’ll share a journal entry from November.
“We didn’t want to tell the girls until we had something more solid to tell them, but they knew something was going on because we were locked up in our room a lot talking and crying. On Friday, I was driving in the car with the girls. Josh was on his way to Portland. Anna asked if Josh and I were going to get a divorce. We never want to lie to our kids. I was praying that I would know the right thing to say. So, I pulled over and called Josh. I explained that Josh and I love each other very much. Then I made a parallel between Josh and Stellaluna.”
Okay, let me break away from the entry for a second so I can explain that part before I continue with the entry. A few years ago, Anna came home from school with a book she had checked out from the library. It was Stellaluna by Janell Cannon. It’s a charming story with beautiful illustrations.
Stellaluna was a tiny baby fruit bat. One day, Stellaluna’s mother was out flying with Stellaluna, when suddenly an owl attacked them. The owl knocked Stellaluna out of her mother’s grasp, but luckily she ended up safely in a bird’s nest. Stellaluna was allowed to stay in the bird’s nest as long as she acted like a bird. She ended up giving up all of her bat ways—she slept at night, ate bugs, and never hung upside down because Mama Bird told her that those things were wrong. Stellaluna tried very hard to be a good bird, even when it was very difficult. One night, Stellaluna ended up finding her bat family who convinced her that her bat ways were not wrong for her—that they were part of who she was. Maybe they were wrong for a bird, but not for a bat. They fed her delicious mango and taught her to fly at night and she realized she never had to eat bugs again. When she finally accepted her identity as a bat, she found happiness she never knew.
The first time I read this to Anna, I had no idea what the book was about. When I finished it, I felt absolutely sick in my heart because I could instantly see the parallels between Stellaluna and Josh. Josh was a bat trying to be a good bird. I knew that he didn’t want to eat bugs and that he wanted to hang upside down, but everyone around him told him it was wrong. He was gay, trying to live a straight life. That is the essence of internalized homophobia—trying to be something you’re not because you think it’s “bad” or “wrong.” Religion has told us that homosexuality is bad and wrong, but I started wondering if these beliefs were a result of our heteronormative culture. Like in Stellaluna, the birds thought flying at night was bad, and they were right. It was bad for them, because they were not made to fly at night, but a fruit bat was born to fly at night.
Anyway, back to the journal entry:
“And so I explained to the girls that Dad was a bat trying to live like a bird. I explained that he needed to love himself and be a bat. We told them we would always be a family and that Mom and Dad would always love each other and that we wanted to still live in the same house but that we might find other people.
They cried at first and said they felt like they were in a nightmare. Once we explained that we would still live together and always be a family, they became calm. Anna even said, “Mommy, I don’t want to hurt your feelings, but the spirit is telling me that this is the right thing to do. Even though it will be hard. You guys aren’t suppose to be married anymore. When I think of you separating I feel good inside. And when I think of you staying together I feel yucky inside.”
It was hard because Josh was just on the phone and he has been out of town this whole time. Friday night, I picked Anna up from Janey’s birthday party and we had a talk. She was a wise little oracle. She said, “I’m worried that people will say, ‘See! I knew their relationship wouldn’t work!’ But, the thing is, your relationship did work, just not the way we expected it too.” I also told her about how Dad has been struggling to love himself. She said, ‘Dad is perfect the way he is. He should love himself. He has done nothing wrong.’
We talked about how Heavenly Father asked me and Josh to get married and now he is asking us to take this next step because gay people should be loved for who they are. I told Anna about how there are many young people who kill themselves because they feel so bad about their life because they are gay. This is what Anna said. “Mom, we need to go on the Ellen show. We need to tell people that it doesn’t matter what other people think of you, you need to follow your heart. This is my mission. I need to tell those gay kids ‘I love you! You matter! You are important!’ They have done nothing wrong.”
She also asked if Josh and I were still having sex and I told her no. That Dad could not do it anymore. She said, “Mom, he did it for 15 years though with you. And he did it because he loves you. Just remember that. He did it because he loves you. Even though he doesn’t LOVE LOVE you, he still loves you more than he would love a friend.”
I am kind of flabbergasted by her insight and wisdom and caring. Both Anna and Viva have said that they feel it is the right thing for Josh and I to not be married anymore and that they feel that through the Spirit.”
An Apology
This is Josh again.
We have some things we want to apologize for.
We’re sorry for some of the things we said in our original coming out post in 2012. There are several ideas in that post that, though well-meaning, we now realize stemmed from internalized homophobia. We’re sorry, so incredibly sorry, for the ways our post has been used to bully others.
We’re sorry to any gay Mormon who even had a moment’s pause as they tried to make the breathtakingly difficult decision that I am now making—to love myself fully for exactly what God made me—because of our post. We’re sorry for any degree that our existence, and the publicity of our supposedly successful marriage made you feel “less than” as you made your own terribly difficult choices. And we’re sorry if our story made it easier for people in your life to reject you and your difficult path as being wrong. If this is you, we want you to know: you were right. You did the correct, brave thing. You are ahead of me in the sense that you have progressed through things I have yet to progress through. You listened to your gut and to God and did a brave, brave thing. Now I’m following your example.
We’re sorry to any gay Mormon who received criticism, backlash, or hatred as a result of our story. It wasn’t long after our post that we began to get messages from the LGBTQIA community, letting us know that their loved ones were using our blog post to pressure them to get married to a person of the opposite gender—sometimes even disowning them, saying things like, “if these two can do it, so can you.” Our hearts broke as we learned of the ways our story was used a battering ram by fearful, uninformed parents and loved ones, desperate to get their children to act in the ways they thought were best. One person wrote—and I’ll never get the horror of this out of my head for the rest of my life—saying that he went to see his family for Thanksgiving during his second year of college, where he was an out gay man who openly had a boyfriend. When he got home, his father pulled up our story on the computer and then physically assaulted him, beating him as he had often done during his childhood, saying “if this guy could avoid being a faggot, so could you!”
Think of that. If we heard about our story being used in that way, I cannot even imagine the stories, all along the spectrum of manipulative horror, that we have never heard.
We’re sorry to anybody who felt a measure of false peace because of our story. There are many people who have good hearts, who were grappling with the issue of homosexuality before we came out, and who were having difficulty reconciling the church they loved with the things they knew about their gay loved ones. Our coming out post gave a false hope: “See? I just knew there had to be a way for gay people to stay true to their faith by denying themselves and live a happy, healthy life!” We’re sorry to perhaps send you back to the state of confusion you were in before you saw our story—but at the same time, that state of confusion is necessary. Something is wrong. It really doesn’t add up. As I have said in thousands of prayers over the last half-decade as I have come to know more and more LGBTQIA individuals and the ways they have been hurt, as well as have realized the impossibility of a God that would set up a “plan” that is totally impossible for a huge segment of His children to participate in, all within a church whose policies and positions assert that that is exactly what God has done: something is wrong. Something is very, very wrong with how things are currently set up. I don’t know yet what is right. But, Father, something is so incredibly wrong.
We’re sorry to any LGBTQIA person who was given false hope by our story, or who used our story as part of the basis for their life-decisions. We honor your decisions, whatever they are, and we’re sorry for any way in which our current trajectory might be unsettling or alarming.
I, Josh, am sorry to the many LGBTQIA people over the years that I subconsciously saw myself as different than. I am no different than you, and any degree to which I held on to the idea that I could be gay without being gay was, I see now, a manifestation of lingering internalized homophobia born of decades of being told this part of me was evil. It was an effort to belong to the “in-group” (heterosexual members of the Mormon Church) that I was actually not a part of.
I have had to eat a lot of crow in these last four months. I have had to look at things Lolly and I thought and believed for decades and realize that we were misguided in our thinking—that there were deeper truths about me and others that we weren’t allowing ourselves to look at. I have had to look over things we’ve said or thought or done over the last five years (and before) and accept that we were very wrong on some key ideas—and that I was hiding things from myself that many others could see. Some of these things I said or did were on camera in front of millions of people. There is no taking that kind of thing back. I take comfort in the fact that those uncomfortable doses of denial can now be refuted and put to bed. That footage, those blog posts, were genuine—they were written and said in good faith, and though I now realize I was wrong, I was never dishonest or disingenuous. I hope people will have a stance of generosity with me (as I will try to do with them), recognizing that humans are dynamic, always learning, and capable of both profound goodness and profound error.
That is how I view the LDS Church (along with other religious denominations), in fact. Institutions that are dynamic, learning and growing, and capable of both profound goodness and profound error.
I hope as we have this conversation that we all can hold that space of generosity for one another. We are all learning. We are all aching to understand truth, and we all love the ones we love. I hope this post helps push the conversation forward.
What have you learned from all of this?
I have spent this week listening to the song “Thunder” by Imagine Dragons, trying to get up the nerve and stamina to post this post. I have felt deeply inspired by Dan Reynolds and his loving, noble stance of activism for gay Mormons—and I cannot wait to see his documentary Believer (which, if it’s any indication of quality Hans Zimmer agreed to score. How amazing is that?). The song has been helping sustain me. During the final chorus, where you can hear him saying “never give up” in the background, I tear up every time, and feel like I can face whatever difficult consequences taking this stand, making this choice, and fully embracing my sexual orientation—in the only way that leads to health for LGBTQ people, including embracing and participating in romantic and sexual attachment—will bring me.
Guys, I can’t tell you how difficult it is to look into an abyss you were told was evil and filled with lava and poisonous snakes your whole life, only to be told later by God, “you know that pit you have been drawn to and taught to hate your whole life? Well, I’m gonna need you to jump into it. Without a parachute. Into pitch black. I promise you won’t get hurt. I promise to catch you. I promise to help you fly.” It is absolutely terrifying. It is putting my faith to the test in ways I have never imagined.
But I’m here to say that I will never give up. I will never give up on my daughters and I will never leave them. I will never give up on my familial connection with Lolly, who is my very best friend, and who has been my greatest advocate since I was a child. I will never give up the fight for my LGBTQIA brothers and sisters. I will do everything in my power to help ensure our health, our well-being, and our safe space to live and love in the way we were made to by God Himself. I will fight and do all in my power so we don’t lose one more LGBTQIA youth to suicide—the loss of these beautiful souls is not just a loss to their families and dear friends. We all, as a church, as Christians, as a nation, are losing some of the sweetest, best, most thoughtful, most creative, most articulate and most faithful individuals on this earth.
Our original coming out post has a title that makes me laugh now. In it, I was inviting people into “Club Unicorn”—a club of people who had seen a gay person married to a straight person who was healthy and happy and content—a rare, unique thing that most people never get to see. The thing that’s funny though, and that I wasn’t seeing then but so clearly see now: unicorns don’t actually exist. The idea of our marriage as successful and healthy, we have finally realized, is just that: mythical. Impossible. Not real. And we had everything going for us: same religion, same socio-economic status, same ideals, great communication, similar life objectives. Heck, we even both became marriage therapists. If any marriage like this were going to be functional, it would have been ours.
But it’s not. Not because the marriage was bad. But because the foundation we were building it on was a mirage. The most integrated, sound home will fall to a shambles if it’s built on a sinkhole. Our marriage was built on a sinkhole. Gay people and straight people cannot attach to one another.
One thing I am learning is that there are some things you can choose in life, and some things you can’t. One of the guiding principles in our original coming out post was the idea that no matter what life gives you you can choose your own destiny. I truly, deeply believed that was true.
I’ve learned though that there are some things you simply can’t choose. A bird cannot choose to be a dog. Like Stellaluna, a bat cannot choose to be a bird. And a gay person cannot choose to live the life of a straight person—not without serious consequences to their mental health that will endanger their life.
All of this notwithstanding, there are still things I can choose.
I can choose to attend the Mormon church—the faith tradition of my youth and of generation after generation of my family—until the day I die. I cannot choose what the institution does to me/with me. But I can choose to be in that pew, and I can choose to sit with my children and best friend and honor what I love in this faith tradition, which will inexorably be part of me, though the institution itself might consider me an outsider, and though the institution might not let my youngest two children be baptized if I partner with a man and my children live with me full-time as Lolly and I have planned.
I can choose faith.
I can choose to never leave my babies, and to be there with them every day of their lives.
I can choose to love. I can choose to love my friends and my family, even if they struggle with who I am. I can choose to love my enemies. I can choose to love the leaders of the LDS church, and to view them in the most generous light, as I too hope to be viewed in the most generous light. I can choose to love my family—the one that Lolly and I created together. I can choose to love Lolly with every ounce of love a gay man can have for a woman. And I can choose to find a partner and love him as well, adoring him and attaching to him in the beautiful way I was always intended to. And I can choose to support Lolly as she does the same. And we can support one another and our children, together in our homestead, watching the years tick by, continuing to have Family Home Evening every Monday, and continuing to say our prayers together every night, and continuing to read scriptures together as we eat breakfast in the morning, and to attend church every Sunday.
We can continue to be the family we have always been, and we can add to that family. This is a concept I learned from my step-mom, Laura. When she married my dad, she told me that her vision was not one of two separate family groups awkwardly interfacing from time to time, but instead a family unit where everybody in her clan and everybody in our clan felt loved, included, accepted and embraced, fully and completely. And that is how we will treat our family. It is a beautiful vision. Nobody rejected. All invited to the table. All members loved unconditionally, no matter what.
In this way, families really can be tied together—knit together in bonds of love that are unbreakable. It is in this that families can be together forever. It is accomplished by loving and welcoming and embracing one another—all of us. In so doing, we can create the legacy of love and acceptance and inclusion that will last through generation after generation, and onward into Eternity.
“A family in transition…” –Anna
Josh, Lolly, thanks so much for sharing this difficult step with everyone. My heart goes out to you guys. The only thing I’m left asking is what words of advice you would give to the few other “unicorns” out there who are still (and at least for the time being, still want to be) in a mixed-orientation marriage. Are you really claiming that this is universally wrong? I’m not trying to justify it at all, and I don’t recommend it to anyone, but I have friends who are still in this situation, and I can see how your words here could be difficult for them.
I dont think it is “wrong”. Just inherently pointless
B0yd: As pointless as a marriage where you can’t have posterity.
Carlos you are wrong LGBT can and do have children…are you saying a heterosexual couple who are infertile have a pointless marriage?
Of course he is. This has been a position of the LDS church for decades, whether directly stated or not. People who have children are blessed, people who can not are not blessed or cared about.
Pointless no but trying to fix plumbing on a house with all male parts is impossible so it’s just common sense.
Or even electrical work try to get all female parts and see how far you get with wiring a house.
Think about that
Shawn SAvage said:
“Pointless no but trying to fix plumbing on a house with all male parts is impossible so it’s just common sense. Or even electrical work try to get all female parts and see how far you get with wiring a house. Think about that.”
Yes, let’s think about how human beings are not hardware parts. Let’s think about how ignorant it is to reduce human relationships down to hardware parts. Let’s think about how human sexuality is wide and varied and has more purpose in relationships than just reproduction. Let’s think about what it means when, rather than opening their mind to the possibility of the existence of human beings who are not exactly like us, someone feels the need to call the unfamiliar wrong and pretend that humans are less than they are because it makes them feel safe to pretend everything they don’t relate to isn’t real or right.
Debbie…
Bang on. This whole idea that reduces human beings to their genitalia, is so very, very wrong. But it gets funny when they reduce gay people to their genitalia, but don’t see themselves doing it.
They don’t seem to realise they are reducing their own relationships at the same time, as if having kids was the only reason they married and there’s no emotional connection and no sexual and intimate connection that has nothing to do with pregnancy.
I believe all children deserve a mother and father and will develop better in a home with both.
Garry,
Why do you believe that?
garry, of course, nice one. yep, children deSERVE a mother and a father figure. How about the fact you think its ok to judge us like that when people like you (homophobes) disown LGBT children so they have neither?
But its ok, cause we’re less human than you. Every child deserves a ‘mother and a father figure’ unless that applies to my community.
I get it.
We’re not the same as you so we get thrown out into the street, because our crime was simply love. We try to adopt all the babies straight couples throw away.
Think about it for one second, and stop being such a hypocrite.
Wow Amanda,
The proclamation to the family in part says in part “The family is ordained of God. Marriage between a man and woman is essential to his eternal plan. Children are entitled to birth within the bonds of matrimony and to be reared by a father and a mother who honors marital vows with complete fidelity.”
I believe it makes sense to most people, especially those who were missing one or the other while growing up. It is my understanding that our sexuality and many other traits are influenced at an early age by our mothers and fathers. I know you don’t want to hear that. I have cousins who were raised by two mommies and it affected their lives and relationships. We have family who are in lesbian relationships and it has been utter hell for their kids and we have all seen it first hand. How is a boy to become a well adjusted man without and example in the home? And vise versa for the girls? I know many pro gay people want to ignore that like so many other things that don’t fit their agenda. The evidence is out there and overwhelming. I wonder if it matters to you?
David Popenoe, Life Without Father: Compelling New Evidence That Fatherhood and Marriage are Indispensable of the Good of Children and Society, (New York: The Free Press, 1996), p. 197.
Garry Berg you may want to research the background on that proclamation, it was developed by lawyers to give the LDS legal standing to file legal briefs opposing same sex marriage cases. It wasn’t revelation!
Of course it matters to me Garry. Of course it all does. But instead of stopping someone else from having rights like marrying and settling down to have a family, how about we try to create a more accepting environment? I know where you’re coming from, I do understand that kids of gay parents have had problems because of it, but don’t you think that has something to do with the way they are treated?
The LGBTQ+ community is much bigger than you think. By promoting this hard closed-minded view you are hurting a large majority of people, some of which, yes, are kids. I was one of them.
Simply stopping us from having kids or the rights to representation claims we don’t exist and gay people die, yes, die, because of it. It hurts to know we don’t exist.
I know you might not understand how two parents of the same gender could raise a child, but I know we won’t go away because of it. We are wired to live that way. I know it’s been tradition, but maybe that tradition needs to change to fit an evolving society to include a group of people that have been denied acceptance for so, so long.
Also if sexuality is influenced at a younger age by their parents, by that logic all straight parents would raise straight children; I can testify that is not the case. You are biased in your judgement; if only because you see us as lesser – being gay is a perversion to you so of course the ONLY sexuality that is acceptably cultivated as a child is heterosexual. Unfortunately, that is a false and misleading assumption. Trying your hardest to keep us from the media and from the family will hurt gay people: representation will not make people gay. You just think people are turning gay because more and more people are being open about themselves after a long hiatus. The closet is not a safe space for any young person and it is a crime to keep them in a place like that. Until you’ve been in there, you have no idea how it feels like, and therefore have no place to judge, let alone condemn.
Just adding to this pointless metaphor, see how much plumbing you can install without a female-to-female converter.
Sexuality is complex. Have read of many people who thought they were gay and lived the lifestyle and changed their minds. Don’t do this Josh! Stay with your family. Show them we discipline our feelings. Everyone has sexual feelings they have to discipline. You had such a beautiful thing!
So are you saying a straight, opposite-sex couple who had a loving committed marriage for 60 years would have had a “pointless marriage” if they didn’t have kids? Or is your “no kids = pointless” rule just for the gays?
Carlos, the ignorance of your sentence is astounding. I would practically have to re-parent you in order for you to understand the fallicy of it.
I know this post and the replies are old, but I have to comment on this. B0yd, how might someone feel about your comment if they spent decades building a loving mixed-orientation marriage? Despite how you might feel personally, please try to be a little more compassionate in your comments. There’s nothing pointless about creating a family and working hard to build a loving relationship despite a lack (at least initially) of sexual attraction. If someone follows your logic, if a spouse was horribly burned in a fire and no longer sexually attractive, their marriage would be pointless.
Make your own path. I feel that’s the only advice to be given. We are all on our personal journies, but if they stay close to the spirit, I believe they will know what will be right for them.
It is inherently wrong and it sends a harmful message to other members of the LGBT+ community. Today is the day for happiness. This life, not the next one.
As a person who was in a loving gay relationship and is now in a loving mixed orientation marriage, I can see why Josh and Lolly are taking this path as it seems right for them. However, mine has definitely been right for me.
Laurie. . You’re gay, but married to a man???? How does that even make sense? Your husband has to be gay too then. There’s no way a straight man would be satisfied being married to a lesbian.
Hi Melissa; If you say things like “There’s no way…” or “I just don’t understand … why you would ever…” then it shows your inability to comprehend even ONE exception. There are almost always exceptions to every “rule” & it’s not wise or healthy for someone to come into a conversation like this as an extremist. I realize that some personalities are inherently rule oriented & it might be impossible for them to think creatively of situations where these rules don’t apply or could be extremely wrong- so I don’t condemn you for coming across as ignorantly belligerent.
In my opinion, Laurie Campbell may be a bisexual who was in a loving same-sex partnership which ended, and now she has found a man she loves and is happily married to.
And a gay man would…?
Laurie could be bisexual. Or pansexual. And “satisfaction” comes in many forms.
When you are bisexual, these things are possible, as with you.
I can see why that might make sense, Jordon. However, it is difficult to categorize some people. If I were bisexual, then I would be attracted to men (plural) as well as women. There is one man I am attracted to, my husband, and that didn’t happen until we’d gone out for quite some time. And, I was in my 30s when we met. Before that I’d only fallen in love with women and assumed I was gay. I don’t really fit all that well into any category. So many things come into play in relationships and marriages. I don’t think there’s any easy explanation as to why one might work out and another might break apart. That’s just been my experience anyway.
I love your video Laurie. I always watch it when I am having a hard day. So many things you say I can relate with. Thank you.
I’m glad to hear that Andy. I appreciate it.
Me again. I am so grateful you commented on this post, as I had no other way to contact you to express my gratitude. I honestly don’t like labels that we seem to put on others and ourselves sometimes. I honestly just don’t feel like I fit into really any category I have found, or what others say I should be. I feel you are very brave and am so grateful that you choose to do what you feel is right, despite what others may say. Same goes for Josh. But I definitely think you have to be courageous for doing what you feel is right when it seems so many others don’t agree. It is very easy to do what you feel is right when everyone agrees with you.
Really, thank you. I cannot express that enough.
You are welcome Andy. If you’d like to email me sometime for support or whatever, feel free to do so at Lrip at mac dot com.
My dad is gay, and my mom is straight. None of us knew about any of this until we children were adults, so our situation is a bit different. I am here on this earth because of them and the decisions they made, and I am thankful that they have made it work and that I had a mom and a dad to raise me and love me. They have brought about great and beautiful things in the world because of their decisions and they are still together. I don’t think people should generalize specific cases to apply to everyone else. I don’t think there are absolute rules for everyone in this area. Follow what you feel is best and aligns with God’s will for you in your life. Do your best and don’t judge – we’re all in the same boat compared to the perfection of God and the need for Christ regardless of the types of sins we engage in.
Hi Laurie,
I am a queer person, a 26 year old woman who is very happy to (mostly) like other women (I also like Captain America and Black Panther). I hope in the future to settle down with a woman and have some dogs or cats! It saddens me to see people who dismiss your relationship – many studies believe women to be more fluid in their sexuality, and in media we see many women who love men who have an “exception” of a female lover. I do not see why you could not be any different. I hope you are in a loving and hopefully romantic relationship that is very fulfilling, and I hope you are in it for as long as it makes you happy (may that be death do you part). Please do not let other people who project their own values on your relationship get you down.
I hope you are having a good week!
Cecilia, I just read your comment. Thank you for being open and kind even though your experiences are different from mine. I’d love to see more of this. I wish you well in your life, too.
Laurie, I have the same concerns that some others have, about Josh and Lolly seemingly endorsing binary orientation ideology, and the idea that it’s always wrong and unhealthy for any gay person to marry anyone other than a person of the same sex, and even insinuating that it’s contrary to God purposes. I’m very glad to see you telling your story, here, and elsewhere. I agree with what Ty Mansfield said in an article I just read, we need more stories.
Laurie Campbell: This might not be the best place to ask this, although I can’t seem to find any other way. Is there a chance that I could get some kind of contact information for you? I’ve read your latest book “Reborn That Way” and I’ve seen a number of your interviews. I love your story and I guess I was hoping to maybe ask you some questions.
This is a case for dating- a lot. I mean really dating around before you get married.Lilly said she hadn’t really dated anyone else. They were best friends. That meant time for getting to know someone else was eaten up by their time woth each other. Teens need to learn to date. It can be hard. Uncomfortable. Especially if you’re needing to date the same sex I guess. I can’t speak on that area. But see it in the Mormon culture and in myself. I had a steady boyfriend and had to learn in college how to date. It’s like tha analogy of falling in love with the first dress you put on in a store. Try on several! Make sure it’s the right size too! How will they be able to date even now if there isn’t a separation of some sort? I dunno, maybe someone out there is hip with this idea. But it isn’t the normal dating scenario for divorces. Especially for Lolly. All this said, their story makes me realize the sensitivity needed in our lives for people’s complicated lives.
I Just don’t understand as a woman why you would ever marry someone you know is gay and will never romantically love you in the first place. I don’t feel sorry for her… that was a dumb choice and she wasted 15 years..
You just said what everyone else was thinking but were too politically correct to say out loud.
They have four beautiful daughters and a very strong family unit. In my eyes, I do not see that as a waste. They love their girls very much and I am sure that they do not see that as a waste either.
“You just said what everyone else was thinking but were too politically correct to say out loud.” Not everyone, and certainly not me. But what I am thinking right now, about you (not Josh and Lolly) I am too “politically correct” to say out loud.
I have read J&L’s post several times. I can’t stop reading it. J & L took a leap of faith 15 years ago, based on their feelings, their prayers, the doctrine of their church, their intense friendship. How can you say that what they did was “dumb”? And even though their marriage was filled with pain, it was also filled with love. There was intense, irrevocable love and beauty, and so much of worth to others both gay and straight.
It brings to mind words from Tolkien’s Silmarillion, of a choice from which both evil and unforeseen good would come: “So shall it be! Dear-bought those (choices) shall be accounted, and yet shall be well-bought. For the price could be no other. Thus … shall beauty not before conceived be brought into (the world).”
I wish J&L all the best. As a straight person, thank you so, so much for sharing your journey with me. As for those who think your choices were “dumb”, I just wish those with no moral imagination, no ability to put themselves in others’ shoes, no ability to look outside the framework of the small bubble they inhabit, would at the very least practice a little self restraint and be quiet.
So their four beautiful kids that are the result of their choices are pieces of trash? How could you say that 15 years was a waste of their time?! Haven’t they expressed through this article how much they learned from their experience?
What a shame to come away from such an open and loving couple and to miss the positive and generous spirit they are bringing to the table by sharing this very intimate story with people because they think it will help them in the long run. I have no space to judge any of their decisions but I am glad to say I deeply respect the choices they have made with their lives, how they have handled themselves within their marriage and as they make decisions for their family, and how they are choosing to share this with people because they think their experiences could possibly be helpful for others.
All I am thinking as I read this is that this is a beautiful woman who made a choice to share her story with the world and I hope she knows she hasn’t wasted a moment with her life because this story and experience is no doubt helping so many people and she’s got those lovely children I’m sure she wouldn’t trade for anything.
That was beautifully said.❤
I agree. Sara you have eloquently said what I was thinking.
I do admire them for stepping up, so eloquently and with such love and clarity, to try and save others from the mistakes they made. I am just sad for all the people who thought they could deny their authentic selves because ‘Josh and Lolly did it’.
Amen!
Thank you, Sara. Beautifully put. I hope Lolly (and Josh, too) both don’t let comments like that doubt their life decisions. They have been an amazing example of a generous spirit to me. It is a very, very rare person who will open up and let us see the actual process in a difficult situation – not just the end result. Their example has been an enormous light to me.
I feel sorry for you, Melissa. You don’t have to understand to not be a jerk.
Not strong on empathy there, are you Melissa? Feel free to work on that.
Melissa, I’m guessing you are not Mormon, right? I think it is difficult for someone outside of a very conservative religious tradition to understand, but within those circles it seems reasonable to many. That’s not to justify it. Also, it’s really not fair to say their 15 years were wasted. I believe that all relationships are meant to teach us something, even when they don’t work out in the end. Personally I think Josh and Lolly are both going to do amazing things in the world now that he has fully come out as a gay man.
It’s not about being DUMB. It’s about being brainwashed from birth. She was a victim of a horrible organization. If you had been brainwashed from birth you might have done the same thing.
How was she brainwashed by Mormonism into marrying a gay man? From what I recall, Mormonism has no problem with straight people marrying other straight people.
It’s not being brainwashed from birth, but more taught and if you want to go your own way out of the church you can. It’s called free agency 🙌
How is Dr. Shades (allegedly) a doctor of some sort and still so dense and lacking imagination?
I don’t think she wasted 15 years since she had children so…
It is very easy to make judgments on people who you yourself do not know. Unless you have a close connection to them, like I do, many things will not make sense.
Which is okay. Just remember your words are read by them. There are real people with real feelings that you do not know on a personal level like I do. It is confusing, it is messy, no one is saying otherwise.
Being able to make rash judgments about people you do not know is very human and we all do it. Having the luxery of saying whatever you think without the repercussions of this straining a relationship or ever having a true interaction with the individuals involved makes it so easy to jump to conclusions and throw out biases and judgments.
We could all take the time to remember that, as I should also. I encourage you to try to do it also. It isn’t about being politically correct, or babying people. It is about realizing this is real people, hurting, growing, learning, apologizing for their faults, and mistakes.
I look up to them with a great love and adoration. They are the salt of the earth people. They love others unconditionally, and they are some of the best parents I know, and I could go on and on.
I love these two as deeply as a souls can, and I encourage to try and really listen to the words they say and to try and understand.
Thank you very much and well said. I came to this blog via a link posted by a friend on social media. I have been appalled by the casual, caustic ways the commenters have chosen to pass judgement on people they don’t know with struggles they don’t understand. Josh and Lolly’s decision to share their story does not give permission to strangers to analyze, parse, and draw harsh conclusions about who they are as people nor how their story will end. It’s still their story.
Tom and Kelli they allowed their story to be used against the LGBT community. They were actually cited in a brief opposing same sex marriage. Now we are supposed to have sympathy for them. Where was their sympathy for the LGBT community those 5 years?
What do you mean by they allowed it? They never spoke out against gay marriage, and they said from the beginning “this works for us, this is rare, do not expect or impose it on others or yourself.”
I would need to see this citations/article. If someone used their words and contorted them to their own agenda, why does that automatically make them agree with the contortion?
Your right, damage was done which they address in this post. I encourage you to read it in it’s entirety if you have not. I think it will answer your questions.
As someone who is close to them, they have been activists for the mental health and well being of the LGBTQ people and especially those who are among the members of the church. The fact that the public did not display all that they have done, and that you have not witnessed it, does not negate the reality of how much they have done behind the scenes. Josh and his family never intended to be public figures, his post went viral, hence lack of other information about them besides the blog, exc.
Kelli, they actually DID come out aga8nst it. They filed a brief to accomplish just that in one of the marriage cases. It might have been obergefell itself. Now, at least, they are trying to make amends. Maybe.
Tim W –
Hi, this is Lolly. I rarely comment, but I have to say something because your comment is missing facts. You said we “were actually cited in a brief opposing same sex marriage. Now we are supposed to have sympathy for them.”
You should get ALL the facts before you speak. Check out the article at the bottom of my comment in which we openly spoke against the brief. That brief was filed without our knowledge or consent. They used our words without asking us and it was taken out of context. When we realized this, we immediately went public to denounce the brief. We also have openly supported gay marriage and voted for it when it was on the ballet in our state of Washington.
http://archive.sltrib.com/article.php?id=2400859&itype=CMSID
Did you even read the post. For so many people being gay is “wrong” that they try to fix it – they both went in knowingly thinking they could make it work. And for the most part they did. But neither regret their decisions. THAT is actually something quite amazing. To not look back with regret, to accept eachother, to make sense of it all. And to love eachother. Even if they’re not married. Some people are fortunate to not have to go through this all. Some people have to go through it all to be fortunate. And if you read the post – she’s not asking you to feel sorry for him. And neither is he.
Why would a woman enter into a marriage with someone who can only ever like her? Because she believes that’s all she’s worth. That’s not stupid. It’s not even uncommon. It’s tragic. And that’s what makes this story so hopeful; everyone involved in this story is learning that they are more valuable than they knew.
Beautiful and wise comment.
David! Thank you! Is there a way for me to “love” this comment? Also… everything in dynamic. Nothing is the same today as it was yesterday; nor as it will be tomorrow. This is true for all relationships, all orientations. So, everyone grows. Everyone has a reason to hope. Everyone has the potential to learn that “they are more valuable than they knew”. Oh, how I love this idea!!
How can anyone possibly know what Josh’s life would have been like if he had not had Lolly as a companion throughout this journey? There are many young people who are going it alone and don’t make it this far. If Lolly was what he needed to make it to this point in life and Lolly loved him enough to help him get there, then who are we to judge their relationship. It seems that they have had to come to terms with some potentially life shattering personal revelations about themselves, their marriage and their faith, all of which could have individually ended tragically. Time is not wasted if lives are saved, love grows and faith endures.
I know this is weird to have someone respond nine months later. But you’re comment really made me stop and think about how crazy our lives can be. Truly we don’t know, and can’t know why we are put into the situations we are, but I firmly believe that all of our experiences are for our good. Even if those experiences are soul crushing and seem in-congruent with what we expected them to be.
“I just don’t understand…” Clearly, you don’t. The next step for you is not to spout off ugly ignorance, but to try to understand. “I don’t feel sorry for her…” I don’t believe Lolly asked for or needs your pity.
“… that was a dumb choice and she wasted 15 years..” That was her choice, not yours, not one that she regrets, according to her own words, because of many good things that came from it. Such as four beautiful daughters. Would you tell those little girls that their mother wasted 15 years bearing and rearing and loving them? Because that’s essentially what you said.
Life isn’t about perfection, but about choices, and learning from them. I’m so happy for Lolly and Josh that they have learned profound things from their choices and have made another choice that opens up the possibility of each of them experiencing the sexual and romantic attachment they have longed for but been unable to give one another, as much as they wanted to.
They say there is no cure for stupid, but I believe there is a cure for meanness; however, it might require fixing what is broken in you. Good luck with that.
“Would you tell those little girls that their mother wasted 15 years bearing and rearing and loving them? Because that’s essentially what you said.” Spot On. This thread is full of hypocrites, one way or another. What two people choose to do with their own life is there own choice, but raising children is beautiful know matter how you cut it.
I don’t think Lolly wasted her time with Josh, she was idealistic and naive. Who isn’t when they get married? What Josh doesn’t understand is that Lolly will never be able to move on unless there is a greater degree of separation between the two. What potential suitor is going to want to take on a girl with a gay best friend who lives next door? Oh and did I tell you he was my husband for 15 years and we have three kids together? Josh and Lolly may have their heads in the clouds and think this is the best solution, reality is usually quite different.
They are obviously in a bad place. I hope the best for them and they can certainly try this alternative to their current marriage. They may be happier in a few ways, but I think their problems are just starting. Good Luck and God Bless!
Maybe they will need some more separation to help each start their new life. On the other hand, they got this far lovingly, so I think they’ll be fine however they work it out. Also, I know of plenty of people who wouldn’t be phased by the extended-family arrangement. Now that I think of it, I believe my neighborhood has two sets of post-divorce couples with new spouses – which seems similar, and must be common enough where children are involved.)
Dayle, I enjoyed this comment, especially, “reality is usually quite different.” LOL!
You say she wasted 15 years after allegedly reading a post in which she says the exact opposite. Your definition of happines is not hers. We all have our path, our walk. We should be thankful two people are willing to be so honest and forthright with us, making us all feel a little less alone.
If we could only feel sorry for people who made 100% smart choices, we’d never feel sorry for anyone. And maybe it would be smarter to live in a shell and never feel anyone else’s pain. How intelligent that would be!
I can totally understand it. I am 52 and have been single all my life and I get so lonely at times that I would gladly marry my best friend, who is gay, rather than continue to be alone in this world. To me sex and romance would be great but I could see myself forgoing them to have a companion. Especially to have had someone to have children with.
Completely disagree. I’m a straight woman. And it sounds to me that you might not understand how love works. It was not a dumb decision – it was a decision based on pure love for another human being.
I am a gay man, and no two relationships I have been in have been anything like each other. I am not even sure they contained even the same principal emotions. Each has been a different experience. More importantly, each of them has evolved over time.
It’s perfectly feasible that this woman might have started out believing something foolish like the idea that she could turn her man straight if she loved him enough, and when he frustratingly kept behaving more like a friend from her sorority wanting to play games with her on the Wii more than she was interested in anything romantic, the more she realized that he couldn’t give her what she was trying to get from him, no matter how desperately he wanted to.
You might start out a romance with dumb, arrogant, foolish ideas, but your heart often grows more respectful and genuinely loving as you get older. In their case, she just had to realize that she could not genuinely love him, for the person he is, without loving the fact that he is gay. Most people don’t figure that sort of thing out until they are a little bit older, so if they’re getting this far by now, they’re doing pretty good.
Personally, I don’t think any kind of shaming about such a personal decision is correct. I don’t think Josh and Lolly have done this, or at least don’t see any motive or intent to shame. I see vulnerability, heartfelt open honesty about their challenges, suffering, and what has led them to their decision.
Mixed-orientation marriages shouldn’t be used to shame those who choose a gay relationship/marriage, and vice versa. Of course, a mixed-orientation marriage may be not only challenging but untenable for most, as Josh and Lolly have warned. At the end of the day, however, we need to empower people to feel 100% comfortable making their own decisions and eschew words and attitudes that shame.
Tragically, the church absolutely does NOT empower people to feel 100% comfortable making their own decisions – they offer words and attitudes that specifically shame.
Thank you for your beautifully written, honest post. Although never married, I am a gay man who used to believe the lies that were spoon-fed by the Mormon Church (and through that awful, awful book the Miracle of Forgiveness.) I used to sob my eyes out begging for God to “heal” me, “fix” me, “cure” me, make me straight so I could do everything the “right” way (that is, the way the LDS church said was the supposed “right” way.) My eyes were opened about 5 years ago and now I am in a wonderful relationship with an amazing man who I never thought I would ever find! Best wishes to you!
I’m so sorry for all who have been given this book. I’m a straight female who was also harmed by the book “The Miracle of Forgiveness”. This book is at best out-dated and at worst evil. There is much good in the gospel as taught by the LDS Church, this book is not.
Yeah but that book was written by a prophet!
the last prophet was John the Baptist and the last revelation was entrusted to John the Apostle-Genesis (beginning) Apocalypse (end) Anyone who calls himself a prophet after the Baptist or wants to add another book after Revelation is a false prophet, we are in the time of the apostolate (preacher of the gospel of salvation and forgiveness) not of prophecy
angela lara, what makes someone a prophet? Was John the Revelator a prophet when he saw visions of God, testified of Jesus, wrote scripture, and prophesied of the end of the world, or was he missing a requirement?
When Jesus told his followers they could recognize a true prophet by his fruits, did he really mean to say, “there is no reason to discern true prophets from false prophets any more, because every prophet from now on is false”? Or did he forget that there wouldn’t be any more prophets?
The Miracle of Forgiveness may be a terribly destructive book…
But I would love to read your answers to these questions and to know what scripture tells you that all prophets after the Baptist are false.
Daniel, I am happy for you and at the same time angry the church put such shame in your heart and mind. I am glad you rose above it to find Love and Happiness…I wish you both the Best! PS I am an active member for 56 years now and I am in complete disagreement to the way the church has responded to our LGBT brother and sisters. I continue to hope and pray everyday that hearts and minds will be open and inclusive and changes will come.
Difficult, yes, but not harmful. In fact, I think this post is going to do many LGBTQ Mormons a world of good and have a general beneficial impact in so many ways.
A lot of the feelings Lolly expressed are feelings any woman experiences in a marriage with a straight man–once the initial “falling in love” period ends. That doesn’t mean we need to get divorced every few years to find it again. That “looking with desire” is more holly wood romance, and not true love. That’s something we women will always struggle with.
The thing was that Josh had never once looked at her with desire, not even at the beginning of their relationship, and never would — never could, because he is gay. This isn’t a matter of a once passionate marriage going stale.
Consider yourself in both positions: do you think you could ever feel truly fulfilled in a marriage with a guy friend who was never attracted to you in the least? And do you think you could ever feel truly fulfilled in a marriage with a woman whom you lived dearly as a friend?
Amen. I had that same thought
“That ‘looking with desire’ is more hollywood romance, and not true love.”
Oh, H. Oh, my dear. I’m sorry that is your lived experience, but it is absolutely not true.
Obviously love changes, within a relationship. Sparks become home fires that are more tender, sometimes. But the sparks are *there,* the desire is *there,* the romance is there to build on. And it flares up now and again in the most unexpected times, when you watch him dandle a baby, when you see him teaching someone, when he’s laughing with a friend and you see his face and just get that kick low in the belly all over again. Only in a long-term relationship it gets tempered by the knowledge that this guy is in it for the long haul–and if you think THAT’s not sexy, too, H, that it can’t bring bright desire…I hope you can find a better life someday.
Jenjen, perhaps we should find out how long H has been married and how long you have been married. Definitely, things change the longer you are married. We are going on 32 years and I agree with H.
Your romantic attraction to your spouse might change over time, but you didn’t start from zero, yes?
It’s not accurate to compare Josh and Lolly’s situation to that of a long-married straight couple. Even if your life isn’t a Hollywood romance (and few people’s lives are–straight or gay), you have a romantic connection. A basic physical attraction of a heterosexual man and woman in a marriage you chose and desired. Josh and Lolly don’t have that.
A far more accurate comparison is one Lolly used in this piece.
Imagine your best friend. The one who totally gets you and you could talk with for hours. Now, imagine that your choice in life is to either marry her, another woman, or spend your life celibate. Since you married a man instead, one to whom you have or once had physical and emotional attraction, the comparison that you, H, and tons of others are making simply doesn’t work.
Speaking for myself as a straight (albeit single) woman, I don’t see any similarities between the two. If I try picturing myself living a married life with my best female friend, it doesn’t feel right. In fact, just the thought of being in an intimate relationship with a woman *feels* off in my body, because physically, mentally, and emotionally, I’m attracted to men. Nothing will convince me that living in lifelong incongruence with my fundamental nature is the same as a long marriage that’s lost its spark. It’s not, and I think you know that.
Good points.
Anon — Since “nothing will convince” you perhaps this reply is wasted. I have no gay or same sex attraction. But, as a contented, happy, but not terribly romantic or hormonal straight male in a nearly 40 year hetero relationship, I disagree and could actually picture myself “living a married life with my best [male] friend.” And I believe it could “feel right” for me. I truly do. But, I would not do that because of my commitment to myself, to my wife, and to my God, and my desire to stay with my best female friend. I don’t think there is much of a difference as you suggest.
It is possible that if you do not seem much of a difference, there isn’t much of one for you. There are many bisexual people in heterosexual relationships, such as myself. If nothing else, the much more plentiful supply of straight partners who are interested in us means that at least 90% of bisexual people will probably end up in heterosexual relationships, even before accounting for cultural factors.
I’ve been monogamous and happily married to my husband for years, but I’m bisexual. It doesn’t really factor into my life (other than passing thoughts finding both men and women attractive, the same as straight people have about their preferred gender), but it is there.
If you don’t find the idea of marrying and sleeping with your best friend “off”, it’s possible you’re also bisexual?
You may not be, of course, and how you choose to define your life and attraction is always going to be your choice. But I saw your post, and I felt empathy, so I thought I would share.
Guaranteed, my comment will be suppressed, won’t show.
Whereas Josh & Lolly are lapping up the attention they are getting I bet the hole against the doughnut they are holding back not telling the whole story. No doubt THIS is closer to the FULL TRUTH than the pablum they have written here.
Without planning to, Josh met a man he has fallen head over heels for and he will no longer deny himself. He can’t resist this man and furthermore he doesn’t want to. He’s going for it and stand-by-your-man Lolly is supporting him with his new relationship. It is fundamentally dishonest for them to not write about the new man in Josh’s life. I don’t know them but I have read literally thousands of stories just like theirs and this is always always the case. The gay spouse without planning to gets their head turned by someone of the same sex and then it is bye-bye straight marriage, hello gay boyfriend. This new infatuation puts the gay spouse in a position of no longer being willing to fake it any more in their marriage. So why didn’t Josh & Lolly write the FULL story instead of this sanitized version? Their apology doesn’t cut it when they are not being fully honest in their apology.
“Bitter, party of one.” I don’t see anywhere in the comments section where you are asked to identify your sexual preference, only your name. But you didn’t have the courage to own your rancid comments. Or maybe you just mistyped it, because I would totally believe your name is “HateGrandmother.” Why don’t you take your little supposition session back to the revival tent or underneath whatever rock you call home.
They’ve clearly stated that this isn’t the case, but you know what, if it had been so, and that was the thing that made them realise their married is untenable, that would also be perfectly okay. The way you’re talking about makes it sound like Josh is ending his marriage because he “wants to sin.” And what is more true is that Josh wanted a relationship with a man is only a sin in the eyes of the Mormon church. And the Mormon church is 100% wrong.
ppppffffttttttttt *fart noise* bbbrrrrrppppppppppppphhhhhhhhhhhhh pffffttttgghhhhhhhhhhh it rules to declare really horrific personal stuff that these people have gone far out of their way through to open their veins and bleed out to explain to you the horror they’ve lived through, because of homophobic “fundamentally dishonest” nonsense, when I can all but guarantee you this person has woken up numerous times in the middle of the night and wanted to kill themselves because they’ve been told they are not just worthless, but an abomination to god. So spare me this nonsense. I can all but guarantee you these two people have suffered through something you can never understand, and I would ask you to compare Christ’s words at the well with the “Samaritan woman” but I’ve learned by now you people don’t actually care about people who are suffering, marginalized, or hurt by power, corruption, and satan. you just want to exacerbate your own power. Shame.
Judgmental, much, Str8Grandmother? Or is it H8Grandmother? Your spiteful, judgmental comment is on display for all to see. You didn’t have the courage of revealing your true name, so you’re sure Josh and Lolly must be lying? Despite specifically addressing questions and assumptions about the reasons for divorcing. Josh and Lolly intentionally revealed exactly who they are, and unintentionally, so did you.
I’m so happy for the realizations they have come to, and that their marriage can no longer be held up as something to aspire to for LGBTQ Mormons who want to stay in the faith. This is real progress and cause for rejoicing.
Judgmental, much, Str8Grandmother? Your spiteful, judgmental comment is on display for all to see. You didn’t have the courage of revealing your true name, so you’re sure Josh and Lolly must be lying? Despite specifically addressing questions and assumptions about the reasons for divorcing? That’s rich. Josh and Lolly intentionally revealed exactly who they are, and unintentionally, so did you.
I’m so happy for the realizations they have come to, and that their marriage can no longer be held up as something to aspire to for LGBTQ Mormons who want to stay in the faith. This is real progress and cause for rejoicing.
Hey Str8Grandmother,
I totally agree with you. Totally. Completely disingenuous to not state the facts of what happened. And I stand by my assessment of this entire relationship and even the arrangement now, specifically, are fundamentally unfair, grossly so, to lolly. Sheesh saddle him with the four children and go make a life for yourself while you still have some youth left. With love, Z.
I disagree. Str8Grandmother has no right to make such a baseless accusation. For Christ’s sake, she doesn’t even know these people! To say something like that with such venom is really unfair, since, may I remind you, she doesn’t know what happened. I also disagree with you on your interpretation of the whole issue. It wasn’t unfair. It was just awful. It wasn’t working for either of them! Now that they’re separated, they’re both going to be happier. They won’t be romantically tethered to someone they can’t love. Honestly, I can’t even begin to imagine the kind of thought process that would lead to this conclusion.
I am going to take a guess that something like this happened to Str8Grandmother, and if so, that is her misfortune, surely. But it does not follow that it is also Josh and Lolly’s story. Rather than presume to know someone else’s truth, Str8Grandmother, why not tell your own story and allow Josh and Lolly to tell theirs? You sound like the blind followers of dogma that create the very environment where mixed orientation marriages happen, and are even encouraged, blessed – but when it comes apart, you turn a blind eye to how your own attitude permitted it to happen in the first place. Shame on you.
Hey h8granny, “literally thousands?” This is “always” the case? Your use of ‘always’ is about as correct as your use of ‘literally.’ While I don’t doubt that you spend most of your waking hours trolling these types of sites and quite possibly making at least figuratively thousands of judgmental and ridiculous comments, I truly doubt you have literally read thousands of stories exactly like this one. You sound like a sad, pathetic, bitter woman and I almost feel sorry for you. Almost. Perhaps you experienced this personally so therefore it must be the same for everyone else on the planet. Generalizations are *never* true, with the exception of this one.
It is intrinsically damaging for people who need romantic attachment to go without it, and have no hope for it. It wears at your mental health and well being. As Josh and Lolly have proven, relationships and especially marriages are about more than sex, about more than children, more than just platonically caring for someone. It cannot be healthy if there is no real attraction there. They may be in denial, but they need to come out of that.
God loves all His children. Every one. He gave each of us the precious gift of choice. He knew we would each come here with different challenges, strengths, weaknesses, etc. In Abraham 3:25, He explained that we chose to come to earth, and here would again make choices. “And we will prove them herewith, to see if they will do all things whatsoever the Lord their God shall command them.”(Abraham 3:25)
He never said those choices would be easy. Most of us struggle with a number of life choices, especially when there seem to be innate feelings and desires in us that would pull us to make choices not in keeping with what He has, through His prophets and His Son, outlined as the path to follow if we would become as He is, or in the case of women, as our Heavenly Mother is.
I have two friends who have both struggled with alcoholism. While I am not saying this is the same thing as homosexual feelings and desires, it was something that, for them, seemed to be an innate desire-even longing. They both felt they had almost no control over the desire for alcohol. One overcome that years ago, through help from alcoholics anonymous, but says that desire still returns if she is not making a daily decision that she will not drink. She believes it will be a life-long struggle, but that, for her, it is worth the struggle. The other has been homeless for several years now, and looked twice his real age the last time I saw him. I don’t know if he is still living. My point is not to praise or condemn either. It is to point out that each made their choice—and had the God-given right to do so. And each learned the law of the harvest- that as we sow, we reap. And that we have the right to chose what we are willing to do to achieve the outcome we desire.
C. S. Lewis spoke a great truth when he said: “There are only two kinds of people in the end: those who say to God, ‘Thy will be done,’ and those to whom God says, in the end, ‘Thy will be done.’ God gave us choice. He has promised us each (with the exception of those hopefully rare souls known as sons of Perdition) a Kingdom of Glory after the resurrection. A place where we will find what we have chosen as happiness. But that happiness means something difference to each of us. Not everyone will choose that path that leads to an Eternal Existence where it requires male and female to become God, and to produce spirit offspring and their own worlds and kingdoms.
For me, the goal has always been a destiny where I can become as my Heavenly Parents and my Elder Brother, Jesus Christ. They have made clear what that will entail on my part.
“And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female, And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh? (Matt. 19:4-5, Genesis 2:24). However, this is not the choice some of God’s children make, and He has given them the right to make that choice. And I must- and do- respect that right. What will make me happy after I leave this life is not necessarily what will make others happy. And so- we make our choices, even in the face of struggles to chose what God has outlined for becoming as He is, and He rewards us with a Kingdom where we will be able to experience happiness. For many that does not include a Celestial dwelling with Husband, Wife and the “continuation of the seed,” the bringing forth of children.
To condemn others for their choice is not our right. We have also been given the commandment to love all God’s children. Period. And to allow each to make the choices that will lead them to a Kingdom where they will be rewarded with the happiness merited by those choices. As Lewis said, to them, “God says in the end, ‘Thy will be done.’” How can any of us argue with that?
Peace and love to you Josh and Lolly.
May Gregory, I’d like to thank you deeply for sharing your thoughts. I agree wholly and completely.
Hi Laurel and Josh. I’ve followed your story through Josh’s blog over the years, and have had a prayer in my heart for you and your family. You are both such powerful writers, and your writing makes it clear that you are both such thoughtful people. Life can be so difficult to navigate at times. I so admire your vulnerability, and willingness to share your (at times difficult) journey. You have most certainly reached many listening ears and listening hearts.
Josh shared how you each “deserve” to have romantic and sexual attachment. I guess I’m stuck on this part… how does one determine what one “deserves?” And further do you think making a decision based on what one deserves is the best course of action? I’ve wrestled with the same question myself- having lots of things I’ve felt I deserved in life, but have been denied by no choice of my own. Certainly, many of my hopes and expectations have not been met in many instances. Yet when I put the matter to study I can’t find any examples of great world leaders of any kind- that made decisions based on what they deserved, expected, or even wanted. Think of all the greatest leaders and exemplars throughout the ages, all of them went without things that our modern psychology would tell us we “deserve,” but humanity is all the better for it! Of course it’s most sobering to think of Jesus Christ. Where would we be if He had decided not to perform the Atonement because He did not deserve that burden since He had never sinned? Where would each of us be if Christ had decided to make His life decisions based on what He deserved? If Christ the greatest of all “descended below all things” are we asserting we are “greater than He” (D&C 88:6) if we make our choices based on what we decide we deserve? Christ was in life, word, and deed a sacrifice for OUR sins. Part of following Christ means, at times, suffering- doesn’t it? Going without something we really want/need/long for/ache for? Haven’t all the covenant saints done that since the beginning of time? Romans 8:17 “And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.” 2 Timothy 2:12 “If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us.” 1 Peter 3:14 “But and if ye suffer for righteousness’ sake, happy are ye: and be not afraid of their terror, neither be troubled.”
I worry about the movement I see in modern thinking/philosophy that seems to lead us in thinking that our choices should most often be based on what we need (I might add what we THINK we need)- even want- to be happy. Don’t the scriptures say that whosoever will save his life shall loose it? But if we lose our life, we’ll find it? Aren’t we required to observe our covenants by sacrifice (D&C 97:8)? Sacrifice was first taught to Adam and Eve; ever since then God has required sacrifices at the hand of His people. Father Abraham was willing to sacrifice that thing he longed for very most in life- even his son. Wouldn’t it follow that to partake in the blessings of eternity with our Savior and Father Abraham, we must be proved faithful in being willing to do the same? To be willing to sacrifice and consecrate all for God? Even, for the time being, the deepest longings of our heart?
I certainly don’t have the expertise you do as therapists, but don’t most marriages have SOMETHING in them that one partner really needs that they go without? Would there be any marriages to speak of if everyone got divorced when they did not/could not get something they deserved? Am I just too cynical in this thinking because of my experiences? Is it unfair to say that all people gay or straight will do without things they “deserve” in their relationships? Aching for something God says we should not have, is not unique to gay people. Aching for something God says we should have, but for various reasons do not currently have is also not unique to any one group of people, is it? Don’t you think that’s a blanket condition for humanity at large? Sacrificing what God asks us to sacrifice, and learning to want what God wants us to want? Further doesn’t anything I put before God, anything I love more than Him, anything I choose over keeping my covenants with Him define Idolatry? I wonder if the things we long for, even deserve, can become our Idols. The ones we fashion unto ourselves, and then make sacrifices to. I know I find myself worshiping the idol of my dreams and expectations far more often than I’m comfortable with.
Ok last question, why do you think there is such wide spread offense to the idea that we are “broken?” Josh mentioned reforming his thought process in seeing himself as being a “broken straight person.” Why is this such a hang up for us? Aren’t we all broken? Again, not a gay thing- a human thing. Isn’t that why we need Christ? I see it laced in so many self-help books and affirmations: “You are perfect just the way you are.” This does not ring true. Obviously one could not encourage self-loathing by any stretch, but where are we getting the assertion that whatever we are, and whatever we do is right (Alma 18:5), and good, and even PERFECT? This idea of humanity being perfect just the way they are is another currently popular idea that I can’t find either scriptural support for, or historical value in. I’m broken in a long list of ways, which is why I need Christ so deeply. To deny my brokenness, is to deny my need for a Savior; surely this thought process would be the ultimately unhealthy one, would it not? Being “broken” or in other words not yet complete, whole, or perfect- does not diminish our value. It’s just a matter of being en-route to Gods perfection, rather than claiming we have already arrived, and I believe it’s God endeavor to help us arrive “come as you are, but don’t plan to stay as your are” (Elder Holland, “Songs Unsung”). In that sense, my “brokenness” could be viewed as gift that provides the chance for me to truly come unto Christ.
Each journey is intensely personal, and life is not easy. I believe we are each doing the very best we can, and must above all seek to always be kind to one another as we search for truth and reason. I send, truly, all my love and very best wishes for your family’s happiness now and always.
Well said, Sarah.
I’m not saying I agree or disagree with any of what I’m about to say here. I merely ask whether you believe it to be true or not.
What about “I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made; your works are wonderful, I know that full well,” and, “before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you?”
Is God infallable, or did God make innumerable mistakes in the creation of everyone who identifies as LGBTQ (are they broken)? That would be millions of mistakes/broken people.
Is every instance of same sex attraction wrong, evil, and anathema to God’s plan?
Do you believe in a perfect, loving, all-knowing Creator? Do you believe that a Creator such as this would intentionally create humans “in His image,” then make rules that prevent them from enjoying the same happiness allowed people who only experience opposite sex attraction/feel at home in the bodies they were born in? Would that Creator demand obedience to rules which cause such anguish and despair that many choose death rather than continue to suffer for decades?
How does Paul’s advice apply to people with same sex attraction? “6I say this as a concession, not as a command. 7I wish that all of you were as I am. But each of you has your own gift from God; one has this gift, another has that.
8Now to the unmarried and the widows I say: It is good for them to stay unmarried, as I do. 9But if they cannot control themselves, they should marry, for it is better to marry than to burn with passion.”
Based on this advice, should not those with overwhelming same sex attraction marry someone for whom they “burn?” Or do we discard this advice entirely and expect everyone to be celibate – as this supposedly is the ideal situation?
If you intend to interpret scripture to support your opinion, it should be reasonable to take all interpretations into account. If all scripture is God-breathed, infallible, and there is only one interpretation then every instance of errancy is sin – eating shellfish or pork, wearing mixed fabrics, sharing a bed with your wife when she’s menstruating, etc.
If Jesus truly is the fulfillment of the law, and the only commandment that remains is to love God and to love our fellow humans, who are we to judge, condemn or have any opinion whatsoever on what someone else has said they believe is right for them?
Very well said, America. The level of spiritual arrogance on display in some of the comments is astonishing. How could anyone presume to have greater authority over Josh and Lolly’s lives than the message God has already given them?
On if homosexuals are “broken”: the gay uncle hypothesis[1] is the idea that a few childless adults will lead to a more enduring society because of their ability to defend, create, or forage as compared to every adult having children — that gay is beneficial by design.
“An unmarried man is concerned about the Lord’s affairs—how he can please the Lord.” – 1 Corinthians 7:32
“I consider being gay among the greatest gifts God has given me.” – Tim Cook, Apple CEO
[1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biology_and_sexual_orientation#Gay_uncle_hypothesis
Very well said Sarah Jackson and May Gregory.
Sarah Jackson, that was beautifully articulated and are my thoughts precisely. I wish I could express myself as you have. You have a gift.
We all have our own journeys of faith and challenges in our lives; hence judging others is pointless and is not loving. We all are “broken” (being mortal) in one way or another. However, the real challenge for all of us is to see if we will continue in obedience to live our life the way that God wants us to. He stated that was one of the purposes for creating this Earth and sending us here: Abr 3:25 “And we will prove them herewith, to see if they will do all things whatsoever the Lord their God shall command them”
No matter what the sacrifice could be (i.e. not being romantically in love in THIS life is a challenge for many, straight or not), it is with eternal vision that we realize this life is so short and that we need to be patient in our afflictions and endure. Life will be different after we pass on, we will leave the mortal weaknesses behind. There is always hope. May the Lord bless this family.
I appreciate and agree with your comment Kizzy.
“Broken” is a Christian concept, not a human one. It is a word they apply pr8 arils to gay people. It gives them a fake disease, which a fake physician like josh tries to make “unbroken” using a fake cure.
As a gay man, I’ve never felt there was ever a single thing wrong with me that getting rid of antigay bigotry and the kind bigotry that hides behind religious belief wouldn’t cure, the bigotry that says gay people are broken is the same kind of bigotry that says that women are less than, black people are less than, Jews are less than— an unwarranted and unwavering faith in a self-assigned and completely imaginary superiority as a heterosexual, a allegedly “moral” person, a so called Christian, and a human being.
Bravo, Ben in oakland. There is beauty in all the natural human variations.
Wow.
Wow, wow, wow, wow, wow.
Wow.
I, too, am broken; I have struggled with (heterosexual) sexual addiction for much of my adult life. When I hear people talking about alcoholism, it resonates with how I feel. When I hear people talking about homosexuality, especially repressed homosexuality, it too resonates with how I feel. I can utterly sympathize with Josh. It is in this sense I am broken, but I trust that God can make me whole, in the next life if not in this.
I do not feel the answer for me is to give into my desires, even if I can fantasize that I would feel not only gratified by doing so, but perhaps intimately fulfilled by pursuing a fluid, dynamic, polyamorous lifestyle. And how would I know? I’ve never experienced a polyamorous lifestyle, despite my feelings. I’ve held myself back my entire life; my wife of a decade is the only person I’ve ever so much as kissed! But I have no desire to convince myself that I should “be true to myself” by abandoning my workaday marriage and freeing myself from emotional repression. I love my wife dearly because of who she is and because of the journey we’ve shared. I am grateful that we (both) realize that, while romance is a great thing in a marriage, is not a critical component (or we likely would have divorced years ago; our love is enduring, but our romance comes and goes.)
Reading Josh’s earlier comments has been helpful to me in strengthening my own resolve to keep the covenants I made in my marriage. I am saddened by his change of heart; it’s disheartening to see someone fall off the wagon, especially when they had been doing so well. I wish Josh and Lolly the best and hope they find the temporal satisfaction they are looking for, but I am ever so saddened to read of this.
I will add, though, that for those of us who struggle with addiction, The Miracle of Forgiveness is an exceptionally unhelpful book.
Sarah thank you for this very inspired post! It was an answer to my prayers as I have been wrestling with these views and where I stand on them for years! I sensed no judgement in your comments, but love from one who is walking a disciple’s path.
I love this comment, and the discussion that followed it.
Wonderfully put May Gregory.
What would you do if your child identified as gay? Not a challenge, just a question.
I think maybe they are doing the responsible thing here, particularily due to the stated familiarity with other members of the church who are LGBTQ and either considering or have already committed suicide. Particularily given the stated messages the church gives LGBTQ members, it seems much more important to address those living their lives in quiet despair, hating themselves- even subconsiously (which was a frightening thing to read about- someone certain they had made the right choice, but hating themselves underneath in a way that expresses itself with sudden thpoughts and unexplained feelings that forces them toward suicide). If their marriage was held up to other ‘unicorns’ as an example and a beacon, it seems entirely appropriate and responsible to tell those people the truths they have discovered about themselves.
Heather, I agree with you, that they’re doing the responsible thing in publicizing their decision, and their reasons for it. I always thought that Josh was implicitly depreciating gays, including a part of himself, and I’m glad to see him recognizing that.
I’m afraid their endorsement of identity ideology, and their over-generalizations about possibilities for gays, might have some unfortunate consequences, for themselves and for others. I hope it won’t take five more years for them to see that, and to reconsider some things they’ve said.
(I apologize, because I think maybe the regular comments were turned off…so I could only comment in a “reply”) Anyway, I appreciate Josh and Lolly’s openness and sincerity. At first, I thought, how could this be? And as I read it, I understood. I can see very much how Lolly (and Josh at this point) feels that the right thing for her to do at this point is to divorce. All I kept thinking while reading Josh’s words were: “put a frog in a pot of cold water, and slowly turn up the heat…then you’ve got him.” It made me so sad, because I could see how Satan was presenting these little, subtle, half-truths to him and very slowly turning up the “heat.” The first half-truth seemed to be that his sexual orientation was beautiful. Yes, and no = half truth. The Grand Canyon, and blue eyes? Ok, sort of…but you have to be careful with analogies, because not all analogies are “analogous.” Yes, his sexual orientation could be beautiful in the sense that he could learn and grow and set an example in a really unique, special way. For almost everyone, our greatest strength can also be our greatest weakness and vise versa. I do believe that God made us all with strengths and weaknesses. It’s part of the the testing and growing and learning that we need to learn from to progress in this life. It’s simply not true to me and a clear rationalization to say “anyone who views themselves as broken is unhealthy.” Why? Maybe it’s just a matter of semantics…but not facts. We aren’t suppose to reach “perfection” in this life. It doesn’t mean that we should hate ourselves for our weaknesses (THAT would be unhealthy)…but we should acknowledge them, and go from there. Even Christ (who was sinless) grew “grace by grace.” Are we better than him that we should think that we have no weaknesses or shortcomings…that we are just perfect as we are? The world, yes the “world” would say YES! Because in the “world” anything goes! There is no “right” or “wrong.” But then there would also be no truth or growth. If someone had a really bad temper, should he just be told that his temper is what makes him “beautiful?” What if that temper went unchecked and he decided to hurt someone? Is that part of the beauty of his temper? Or…what if he realized he had a bad temper and worked really, really hard to control it? What if it even went against his natural reactions to control his temper? What if holding his temper in and not releasing it in a fit of rage made him feel like he was holding back a part of himself? Would people tell him….”Look, it’s just who you are! It makes you beautiful! Release those feelings however you feel like! You don’t need to control them or harness them!” Is that what people should say? Would that be ok? Or…what if he said to himself: “Ok, I have a really bad temper. It even makes me feel better for a while to get really, really angry sometimes. But I know it’s wrong. As natural as it is for me to loose my temper, I have to fight against those feelings and CHANGE my reactions, change my behavior, channel it another way. I need to learn, grow, pray, and yes—control my feelings in this life, until I become better.” Wouldn’t most of the world even applaud this thinking? Wouldn’t most people encourage him to do this, and even stand in awe of his “beautiful” example of working hard to faithfully endure and overcome his weakness? Maybe knowing that he could do this (with the Lord’s help) was the very reason the Lord allowed him to be born with a weakness for having a terrible temper. Maybe the process and strength that would come to him from overcoming that weakness is what makes him “beautiful.”
I know that what I’m saying will probably feel hard to swallow for most people. It certainly does go against the “world’s” advice. And yes, it is true…we are all in the world. We are all born with things we need to overcome. That does not make us bad. It makes us mortal. That is exactly where we are in the eternal perspective of things…we are in our mortal, imperfect state. That IS how we are suppose to be, but it is NOT how we are suppose to stay! I wish Lolly and Josh well. I just feel like it’s another win for the Adversary….And not because they are getting divorced. (I have been divorced myself. I was married to an unkind man. We were married in the temple. We received a temple cancellation, and I have been remarried to my true Eternal companion for almost 17 years now.) I feel like Josh’s rationalization (yes…half-truths) have won, and that is why I am sad for them and their family. Maybe they shouldn’t stay married, but I don’t think Josh’s words are true. (Even though I believe he is convinced they are true for now.) He contradicts himself by saying that after his mother’s death, he realized how short this life is…and yet he goes on to say that he doesn’t know how he could continue for so long in this life. I get it, I think we all feel that way about life at times. I wish him well and pray that they both find peace and truth, and eternal happiness.
Very thoughtful and wise words DW. You expressed some of my concerns with grace. I think the Weed’s sympathy and strong association with the LGTGIA commnity and their agenda was the warming water that finally cooked the frog. Unfortunately, I see this happening to too many good Christian people, especially on the topic of homosexuality and other sexual challenges. When anything is leading someone away from God’s values and doctrine, there has to be a better solution. We are told that God will not give us more than we can bear. I believe that with all my heart but we need to faithfully follow Him to turn even the most difficult trial into a strength and blessing. I have witnessed that time and time again in my own life and in the lives of others.
In closing, I would like to share one of my favorite scriptures.
Mark 11: 28-30 says “Come unto me, all ye that labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly of heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.”
I bear my witness that will Him, nothing is impossible. I Pray for Josh, Lolly, and their daughters and that somehow God will intervene, as he has done at crucial times in my life, even when I was ready to kill myself at 19, and touch their hearts and give them new-found hope and direction.
This comment reminds me of how liberated it feels being out of the church. I realize you’re trying to be understanding, but, my gosh, the level of mind control is flabbergasting. I never cease to be amazed by how “sure of themselves” people in the church are.
DW,
I sort of get where you are coming from but to compare this issue to something like a temper, which actually causes hurt to others when expressed, is way off. It sounds like you are saying that acknowledging this part of yourself and loving yourself is tantamount to causing pain to others, which could not be further from the truth. Gayness is not a personality trait.
Yep.
Hi Josh,
I was just wondering. I am still a member of the church and plan to stay on the path I am on, even though I do experiance a strong attraction to the same sex. Same sex attraction, gay, whatever you want to call it.
By this post, are you saying the path I am on is ultimately impossible because it was that way for you? I really an sincere here, and just would like to know your thoughts. Thanks.
Andy,
I know your question is old but I wanted to comment. I have dealt with some same sex attraction, but am very happily married and will be so for eternity. I think everyone’s situation is different, but for me, I look at it like this: we all have our burdens and it’s up to us to choose to remain faithful or not. I had a massive temper as a child, but I chose to learn to control it. I inherently don’t really care about other people, but I try to serve in a way that fosters a love for others in my life.
So while I’ve experienced same sex attraction, I choose to love my wife and to remain firm in my faith. I also think Elder Bednar’s words were very powerful for me. He basically said: above all, you are a child of God; your sexual orientation is just one small facet of who you are. For me, it’s been nice to think of myself as someone who experiences same sex attraction as opposed to using language that tries to define me by my sexual orientation.
I hope you find my reply helpful.
Thank you for being brave to share your experience. I always appreciate people vulnerably and honestly sharing their stories.
Don’t do it don’t do it Grandma gay speaking here 60 years experience done it all it doesn’t work. Gay people need to marry gay people straight people marry their straight people in the story. Amen
Dear Josh –
I am sure there will be haters on your post, but as a straight white LDS guy, I wanted you to know that I thank you for this. You and Lolly have always been able to express yourselves clearly, tenderly, and compassionately. I read your original Club Unicorn post, and I, too, have heard and been horrified by the way it was weaponized on those who are already struggling. I, too, have felt what it was like to be married to someone who never found me desirable as a human being, much less romantically, and I died inside over more than a decade until I got a divorce and married my best friend.
The difference is night and day. I cannot say what will happen within the LDS church – the doctrine is expressed strongly for certain, but we know how loving our Heavenly Father is, and there is a disconnect somewhere. What needs to change, I, like you, cannot say for sure. Somehow, somewhere, there is a way to help those that struggle in these things.
You have brought and continue to bring a voice that I value to help me understand the struggles of those that are outside my own personal experience. Keep it up. I’ll read everything you guys post on the subject.
I hope that you find the joy in life that every person needs.
Behind you all the way,
Ian
What an incredibly courageous and beautiful post. Thank you for sharing the growth and changes you both have experienced and for giving those who identify both as LGBTQIA and religious, hope that they can be true to themselves while also having faith in their creator. I hope that as religious institutions grow and change that they do heed and give thought to the lives they lead and make strides to offer not just understanding and compassion but true fellowship and the opportunity, to their members, to be faithful servants of their faith, while honoring, loving and being true to who they are. I wish you all peace and compassionate understanding in the journey(s) that lie ahead of you. Remember too that the sorrows we experience make the joys that much sweeter. The love you have for each other and your communities clearly shows. While this time of sorrow is heartbreaking, the joy you’ll find as each of you has a chance to be authentic to who you are, grow and be better able to meet your core needs, will be worth it. Even if, the joy, has a hint of bittersweet.
As I pondered this, I had some additional thoughts:
I’m not sure how anyone can use oversimplified ideals to armchair quarterback someone else’s life in the middle of an incredibly complex situation. As long as their post was, I promise this is just the tip of the iceberg.
For fellow LDS folks, we are here on this earth to LEARN and GROW. Consider the story of Elder Christofferson’s gay brother who came back to the church after being gone for decades. Would he have been able to understand things the way he did if he hadn’t been allowed to go and have experiences as a gay man and decide what he TRULY wanted? Josh and Lolly need to grow and learn, just like each of us, and I guarantee that in a few years, they’ll look back on THIS post and *facepalm* over a few things they simply didn’t understand at the time. And how could they without having the experience?
At the end of the day, they are making a decision, the best one they know how, taking into account all of their faith and beliefs and principles and all of it. What they do may not be wrong or right for any of us, but they are doing what they sincerely believe is right, which should be good enough for any would-be-armchair quarterbacks who frankly lack enough information to truly guide and counsel them in the middle of this sticky situation.
We are free to say what we would or would not do in the same situation, but it may be like non-parents deciding how they are going to parent before becoming parents, which is to say, *they have no idea until they have the experience*. I am not gay, I am married to a woman that is my actual best friend and I am romantically and sexually attracted to. I have no right or context to judge what Josh and Lolly are doing, not really.
And if you ARE in a mixed-attraction marriage, your situation is not his, and while you have a better idea of what is going on than most, you *still* don’t have enough information to armchair quarterback Josh and Lolly’s life for them. Asking questions seems fair, but judging does not. Loving and supporting them even if you don’t understand is definitely the right thing, but judging is definitely not the right thing.
Anyhow, they are choosing to move forward, and God loves it when we exercise our agency. That’s good enough for me, I don’t need to judge their complex situation from my limited perspective. Goodness knows, I’ve had plenty of my own complex situations when others tried to armchair quarterback me and I know how much I hated it, so while probably few people will read this, it’s probably best to keep the judging down as close to zero as possible.
Appreciate your thoughtful post Ian
Ditto to everything Ian said, so beautifully said. Josh & Lolly, you are loved and I’m very happy that you are both finding the peace & happiness you deserve.
I’m confused by the relevance of your race to this discussion.
There probably isn’t any direct relevance, but I’m so used to grouping “straight white male” together that I didn’t give it much thought beyond the automatic response. 🙂
We’ll put. I definitely value the experiences of other that are not my own. You put it all very eloquently. Thank you.
Oh my gosh. This is so beautiful. I wish more people like you existed.
More pondering.
Some of you may know the story of the 6 blind men and the elephant. Each of them touched a different part of the elephant and got a different idea what the elephant was. One touched its trunk and thought an elephant was like a snake, one touched its side and thought an elephant was like a wall, and so forth.
Then they all began arguing with each other, which begs the question, WHY? Why are they arguing? It’s not just because they see things differently. My wife and I see a lot of things differently, and we talk out our differences instead of fighting about them. I’m a religious conservative and one of my best friends is a liberal atheist. All convos on the table, never a fight in a decade of friendship. We don’t avoid sensitive topics at all, and never a fight.
So what’s the REAL issue? The blind men fight because each one of them believe that their *correctly perceived PIECE of the truth is the ENTIRE truth*. Instead of trying to figure out how each piece fits into the whole for a wider view, they cling to the truth that they know and fight off all other truth that seemingly disagrees with them.
I see pieces of the truth in nearly every post here, but everyone is arguing as though their piece is the whole truth. Josh and Lolly’s experience is valid for them, and they have some very good points in their blog. It’s easy for a straight person to tell a gay person to just deal with being single or stay in a mixed orientation marriage, but there are difficulties and nuances there that cannot easily be ignored. Thier choice may not fit within the truth of someone else, and they will have some unintended consequences for what they’ve decided (goes with ANY major choice in life, frankly).
Those that are LDS and preaching against the dissolution of J&L’s marriage have some good points. What ABOUT asexual people? Disabled people? Does sexuality and romantic attachment have to attend every marriage or else that marriage falls apart? What about the voice of the prophets? As Josh and Lolly are LDS, these are questions they have to wrestle with.
Those that are anti-Mormon have often experienced terrible things at the hands of members of the church, and they have good points, too. The LDS church has not always been great at handling all situations with all people perfectly at all times. It’s easy to point out all the flaws, and they do totally exist, make no mistake.
Being LDS, I see how the church evolves constantly and works hard to grow beyond what it is, so I have complete faith that it will get to where it needs to be, regardless of the weakness of its members, but this does not invalidate the terrible experiences of those who have left.
All pieces of the truth. How about we try to see what the whole dang elephant looks like by discussing openly and respectfully instead of holding to our piece of the elephant and invalidating everyone else’s?
More pondering from an LDS perspective.
One of the reasons we Mormons tend to get tied up in a knot about LGBT stuff is because of a conversation in the Book of Mormon between the prophet Alma and his son, Corianton.
Alma tells Corianton, who had slept with a harlot while on his mission, that sexual sins are an abomination to God, behind only murder and denying the Holy Ghost (that last one is tricky, but suffice to say that pretty much almost no one on this Earth is capable of it).
This creates in our heads this hierarchy of sins – the worst ones are, in order, denying the Holy Ghost, murder, and adultery (and other sexual sins).
However, this actually doesn’t match up to the Savior and how He tended to deal with those who committed these sins. Who did He have the harshest words for? Not the Samaritan woman at the well or the woman caught in adultery.
So recall the lawyer (or whoever it was) that asked Him what the greatest commandment in the law was – Christ responded to love God with all your heart, might, mind, and strength, and the second was like unto it, to love your neighbor as yourself.
Wrap your brain around this – the biggest sins in LDS theology AREN’T murder and sexual sin. Those are just sins that are particularly difficult to repent of because there is no real way to make resititution. The biggest sins have to do with the two greatest commandments.
The Savior had the harshest words for those that claimed virtue but were full of judgment. They may not have murdered, or broken the Sabbath, or had any major sexual sin, but they broke the greatest commandment.
Let me put it this way – I would rather be a murderer or adulterer who had love in my heart than be free of major sins and be judgmental of others, no matter how far astray they were. It’s not my place. Granted, it’s easier to repent of not loving than it is murder or adultery, but I’ll take being one of the adulterers the Savior spoke to over being one of the Pharisees.
So before we as a people can really tell LGBT people how to live their lives, how about we make sure they know we truly love them first? It’s tricky to love someone when they claim you have to fully accept their behavior to love them – that’s not love, either. But I can totally be a believing Latter-day Saint and not jump into a diatribe about Josh and Lolly’s experience.
I’m free to ask questions to understand and challenge some of the thinking in a respectful way, but not to preach, prophecy, or attack.
Just my thoughts. 🙂
Wow. I had never thought of this the way you just put it, but that was wonderful. Thank you for the insight.
Like you, I understand that the church hasn’t always handled these issues well but that, like the rest of the world, we are learning and developing and understanding of this issue which has never come out in such openness before. I think that this “unleashing” of homosexuality into the mainstream is a part of the fullness that was promised for the last days. The Lord WANTS us to face this, and understand it, and develop compassion for it. He wants us to know that not everything is black and white. We truly live in an incredible time.
Thanks, Lolly and Josh, for expressing yourselves. Thanks to others in these comments who have explained that for them, something different is what was right for them. Each experience is truly unique and I wish ALL of you the very best.
Ian — I’ve appreciated your ponderings. Thanks for sharing them. Like you, my quest is to keep the first and great commandment and keep it foremost above all else. To do so I must stop judging others and having a heart at war. Keep the faith. Thanks again.
Ha! SOMEONE has read one of my favorite books in the entire world, or else that turn of phrase was a crazy coincidence! I, too, wish to have a heart at peace instead of a heart at war, to stay out of the box and see people as people instead of objects. 😉
In case anyone here has not yet read the wonderful Arbinger books, The Anatomy of Peace, and Leadership & Self-Deception, go get them right away. Life changing in all the best ways.
Wow~ Josh and Lolly. You guys inspire me by your authenticity. There is nothing but love coming your way. You BOTH deserve to be loved and desired in a romantic way. Can’t wait to hear about your bright lives in the future!
Love you Josh and Lolly! Thanks for your authenticity and friendship.
I am in tears over your honesty – it is heartbreaking and beautiful all at the same time. I am also SO incredibly excited and thrilled that you and Lolly will both finally be living your truth with opportunities for that deep romantic love you both need. What an exciting adventure! I absolutely adore the idea of a homestead – of a place you can all live side by side. What a beautiful way to provide stability for your family and show them what true love really is. Congratulations!!!
Josh and Lolly,
I’ma straight male Baptist from Georgia, and I loved your original post. I loved it because it utterly confounded the people saying that being gay was aberrant and showed in its example that someone can be gay and live righteously in the eyes of a homophobic society, thus showing that being gay is not and has never been a state of damnation.
I realize now that the stance I took about your first post was also a compromise. It gave you a pass to not live into yourself fully, and I repeated in the third person that error which you and Lolly have written about so expressively.
I believe deeply that your original post did a lot of good. It showed us something that many people had not been exposed to: someone devout in his faith and yet unapologetic about the way that God made him.
I believe that your post was an important step for people on their road to embracing marriage equality and welcoming gay people into their own life. I used it and referenced it in discussions that helped bring people to escape their own homophobia.
But I also know that my perspective is premised from the standpoint of homophobic straight people learning to accept, not those looking to condemn their own family members. And so, while I’m still glad that you wrote the first post, and glad that you came out to the world, I’m also glad that the step has been taken, and for what you’ve both taught me in this beautiful piece of prose.
This piece of text is beautiful and I see God working in it. I see God working in both of you. Thank you for exposing the Steep part of yourselves, and through yourselves being an education for so many others.
Amen.
Exactly. God bless you both.
I’m so sorry for the heart break and pain you are both going through, but am also looking forward to hearing about your wonderful family and your choices in the future. I had always wondered about the idea of you being made heterosexual in the after-life and now I can see how that fits into your thinking. My own personal experience over the last several months has been a process of realizing how much self-hatred I have for my autism and how God/Goddess has been calling me to find a way to love myself more fully, so I feel like I’m on a similar journey. Love to you both!
Wait, you’re an aut? Awesome!
I just discovered your writing. Got my wife The Book of Laman for Christmas, and then promptly devoured it myself. I’ve also really loved witnessing autistic self-advocacy since I first ran across it 10-plus years ago. What the autistic community has to say, to outsiders and to themselves, makes deep sense to me. (I don’t have a diagnosis myself, but if you believe in Baron-Cohen’s autism-spectrum quotient, I’m a 26. If I’m not secretly an aut, I’m at least deeply sympathetic.) So it’s a delightful surprise to find that an author I enjoyed is learning to love her neurons. Much respect.
This is beautiful, and I’m grateful you’ve chosen to share your experiences publicly. I’m curious what you might say to a heterosexual couple where one spouse doesn’t (and has never) felt the undercurrent of romantic attraction you deservedly long for. I’m talking about a relationship in some small degree like the one you describe: friendship + sex without natural romantic attraction. I ask because I’d guess a sizeable portion of heterosexual marriages are like this, and your story seems relevant at some level to them. Thanks again for sharing. Best wishes to you.
I’m not sure if you’re referring to asexuality but I was thinking about that as I read through Josh and Lolly’s words. Another small but real portion of people truly weren’t made to need romantic attachment and they may be an “aberration” too but need to also be seen and heard that they aren’t broken for not wanting/needing that anymore than being LGB is, though that is a separate issue in many ways and not their job to break down while telling their personal story. Just a side note while we’re lifting from the bottom and apologizing to LGBT community, remember there is an Aon the end for a reason.. Much love and hope to you both!
Emily, I am assuming you are talking about yourself being the A on the end. I hope you realize that you are not fundamentally broken, either. Though you may not need or want the sexual attraction and romantic love, you do need the depth of emotional connection and love. You may be or may not be monogamous. Please remember that in going forward, honesty and transparency is best. Never be afraid to be you and let others know who and what you are. The right person or people will come along.
Asexuality could certainly be part of it. I’m not Ben, but I’m guessing that he’s referring more to folks who got married after knowing each other a short time and didn’t really determine if they were really compatible sexually or romantically. They may have taken Spencer W. Kimball’s statement about any two people making it to the Celestial Kingdom if they’re willing to work on it, and got married more out of a sense of duty than romantic or sexual feelings. Then there are those who may be suffering from low self-esteem or depression who accepted the first marriage proposal that came along because they weren’t sure if they would get another one. Both cases could lead to situations with little or no real intimacy either in or out of the bedroom.
Yes, Steve. I’m referring to that situation. Thanks for articulating it so well!
That’s an excellent point Emily, and something that crossed my mind as well. Sexuality, gender, and romantic desire are ALL spectrums – and we should celebrate diversity and empower each individual to live authentically and pursue a happy life. While statistically there are aberrations and outliers, we are ALL humans, with a fundamental need to be cared for and understood. I think the ultimate lesson here is: listen, and even when we can’t fully understand, choose to love rather than shame.
Hi, Emily —
I’m not speaking of asexuality, though that’s an important case to consider. Rather, I’m speaking of someone who got married because they were good friends with their potential spouse and believed they were “compatible enough” sexually.
So a relationship where all of those things exist, but there’s little to no romance.
In short, friendship + sex (even sometimes enjoyable sex) but no romance — which seems to be a theme in the post from the Weeds above.
To be candid, this situation has been a theme of my marriage, and that’s why I ask. I would guess that it’s possibly a theme of many marriages.
Ben, I’d love to connect with you on the subject. My wife and I are in a similar situation and Josh’s circumstances resonate with me in part because I’m bisexual and in part because my relationship with my wife contains very little romance. While I would never consider divorce because we have the /capacity/ to make things work without intimacy (including things as simple as holding hands on the walk to church), the pain indicated here is akin to the pain felt in my marriage frequently.
Feel free to look me up on Facebook. I’m the one located in Provo.
I look at it in this way. I am also bisexual, but that does not mean I am attracted to everyone. I may experience deep emotional connections with people and never feel romantically or sexually attracted to them. I may be oriented to someone of my partner’s gender, but that doesn’t guarantee attraction to them.
Just like everyone else, you and your wife both deserve the kind of requited love you need in your lives. There is no reason to try to force attraction that isn’t there. Doing so is little more than having a marriage of duty rather than love.
If you are going to spend eternity with someone, it should be someone you love in every way, who loves you back in equal measure and kind. Why settle for something unfulfilling?
I got married in the temple. Due to my husband’s choices, I lost emotional connection and attraction to him. He was very abusive. It tore me up to consider divorce, but ultimately I knew that I deserved to be happy. I deserved to be truly loved.
I’m in a similar marriage to what you describe. Pleasant. Kind. But not intellectually, emotionally, or spiritually compatible, which is what I imagine romance consists of. We both loved/love children and I saw that he would be a good father. The project of raising our children is our main focus. When the babies stop coming, the relationship got more challenging. I wonder if this played into Josh and Lolly’s decision at all, since their family was completed around the time things got really hard for him.
Perhaps it’s a bit of empty nest couples have when kids go to school, although theyoungest child looks like a preschooler in the photos I’ve seen. But kids remain a project for a couple through the teens.
I wonder if the timing had to do with being in the late 30’s and realizing youthful passion and romance was fleeting. Granted older people can have those thing too, but speaking as someone in her 60’s, it’s different (better in some ways worse in others) than premenopausal romance. (This is not just about The women. Men have declining sexual desire too and may not be able to “work at” finding someone attractive as easily as they did in their 20’s.
Wishing you both strength and peace and of course deep deep love! Forge ahead. Thanks for sharing your personal journey. We are all learning. You inspire me to love all people as they are, in their perfectness.
I have nothing but love for you both and for your family. Thank you for this essay that is both heart-felt and heart-rending. I cannot think of a more powerful arc to demonstrate that love and life fulfillment is so much more than mutual affection and an ability to have sex. What you’ve been able to define and express here could not be more truthful or important and I wish you both the best as you start this next chapter.
That was absolutely beautiful. I admit when I read your original post in 2012, I felt like what you were describing just wasn’t something that could be maintained forever.
Hearing your journey is inspiring. I am so glad you each have such a beautiful and strong person to support you. I truly hope you each find the true, romantic love that I think you each deserve. I had no doubt that your homestead will be that much richer and better as a result.
Love you both. Always have. Always will. Thank you for your honesty. ❤️
Very nice.
Of course, Now that they are thinking with their own minds it will be fun to watch what will inevitably happen next
This is your second derogatory comment on this post. Go troll somewhere else.
I don’t know you personally, but…I feel such love for you, Lolly, and your children. I admire your courage to engage in the journey of embracing authenticity and wholeheartedness, whatever that looks like for you. What a ride. I admire your ability to hear God through it all, even when His voice was saying things that you weren’t expecting. You are good. You are needed. You are beautiful. You are just as you should be–all four of you.
“. . . to this very difficult, very unexpected post.”
“Difficult,” yes. “Very unexpected,” absolutely not. Literally everyone else on the planet saw this day coming ever since 2012.
This^^^^. Was only a matter of time. I hope the idealized vision of a ” homestead” doesn’t end up this way as well.
As an LDS woman who was married to a man who eventually came out I appreciated Lolly’s description of her feeling of not being fully loved and ache for the pain their family is going through. While I wish them the best with their “Homestead” ideal, I hope they will remain flexible as the reality of adding “partners” and being one big cohabiting family present. To me it feels like one more concession Lolly is making for Josh’s happiness. I hope she’s eventually able to breakaway and create her own.
“One more concession Lolly is making for Josh’s happiness?”
Isn’t a statement like that remarkably similar to one she addressed in her remarks above?
“Oh, but Lolly, you deserve to be loved that way! You will find someone else who can love you like that. You deserve to love and be loved in that way!” And I agree with them. The thing that I find interesting is that these are all straight people looking at me, another straight person, and being able to see the injustice of me not experiencing true love. They see that it is wrong that I have never felt that love. They feel it. They can put themselves in my shoes and realize how hard that would be for them. They can see it because it is presented from a straight perspective.
The thing that’s so interesting to me is how few people think of Josh in this way. How few people in his life have ever thought these things about him—things that are so obvious, so clear, so emphatic when talking to another straight person. I mean, isn’t the same true for LGBT people? Shouldn’t we feel the exact same intuitive injustice at the thought of them deserving to be “loved like that”? When the tables are turned and we are talking about LGBTQ individuals, somehow people don’t see the parallels. Why am I, as a straight person, entitled to reciprocal, requited romantic love while an LGBTQ individual is not? I am not sure how a straight person can look at a gay person and say, “I deserve love, but you don’t! If a straight person doesn’t get romantic love it is an injustice. Everybody deserves that kind of love, if you’re straight. But gay people? Well, that’s another story…”
Could it be that it is a sacrifice they are both making for not only each other’s happiness, but to try for their children’s as well?
I am pretty sure they are primarily choosing to cohabit for the sake of their kids more than either parent’s happiness. And the kids should always come first in a family, so that is the correct call.
What man is going to want to go live on a “homestead” as part of their little fantasy family? These 2 still have a lot of reality to face…It is a mess created by the LIE that gay people need to be fixed. They have a LONG WAY to go.
I’m surprised at how few people have pointed out the, to be blunt, naive homestead plan.
Whatever man is right for either of them. In fact, there are plenty of men who choose to live on “homesteads” because they enjoy the lifestyle of self-sufficiency that comes with it. There are also step-parents all over the place who manage to have a friendship and co-parent with their partner’s ex. I’d imagine it’s more difficult in situations where the ex used to (and still might) have romantic and jealous feelings than one where everyone admits they never really felt that way.
Excellent point. Also, there are polygamists who live this way very happily. Different strokes for different folks.
To add to this, I don’t think they’re required to even live in the same house. 160 acres is a lot of space.
It’s possible they may end up separating and living in different places, but one way I could see the homestead working in the long run is sort of making it into a community with different homes for different couples.
I hope they have an open mind as there are a lot of potential solutions here.
I know that LDS doctrine has changed (a LOT) based on, as I understand it, continued revelation but I am kind of laughing at all these people going “who would want to LIVE on a HOMESTEAD with your partner’s OTHER SPOUSE and all your SHARED CHILDREN”.
Historically, um. Mormons?
plips, I’m dying over here! 😀
Like… isn’t that what Mormons did for eons? Except with lots of ladies having to share the same dude? (Which actually sounds much less wholesome to me than two monogamous couples sharing the same piece of land–but, hey, no judgment).
Historically yes, was it easy, no way! Read some of the journals of early LDS pioneers and their plural marriages. Very messy! Add a gay Mormon parent and his partner, very, very, very messy!
Hi Dr. Shades, Your thinking that “Literally everyone else…” is, of course, totally made up & un-provable but I realize it’s your way of saying that you personally thought things would unfold similar to how they have. However, your comment(s) indicate that you lack the sympathetic ability to understand that someone in a cult religious environment can absolutely not foresee (later find to be unexpected) what might be obvious to a lot of other people. It’s a common practice in these religious communities to only allow oneself to mentally contemplate the desired situation (not being gay for example) & to envision otherwise is often taught to be a dangerous act (sin?) in itself. It would behoove you to consider that other peoples journeys back to God are just as special & valid as your own.
I’ve literally never responded to anyone in a comment thread before. However, your comment was so ridiculous, so rude and insensitive, and incredibly immature. But then again, your blogger name is Dr. Shades and you have some sort of Harishuku girl as your avatar, so I guess I shouldn’t be all that surprised. At any rate- bugger off, troll. Who says something like that?
No mater how “ridiculous,” “rude,” “insensitive,” or “immature” you may think it was, it was nevertheless 100% true, and you know it. You aren’t allowed to get irate and self-righteous over things that are true. As for “who says something like that,” well, I do.
Now do us both a favor and go back to not responding to anyone in a comment thread anymore. You were much more tolerable that way.
😂😂😂 what a dick you are shades.
How am I a dick? Please explain, ’cause I don’t think you know, either.
Wow, really? The sentiment that this outcome was entirely predictable is rude, insensitive, and immature? He’s right, it WAS completely predictable! Maybe if people like you stopped living in fantasy land there wouldn’t be so much suffering in this world. 4 kids subjected to this do-gooder social experiment, all based on lies and selfishness. Oh, but this random internet opinion is too much for you to handle? OMG!!! Less political correctness please, more real talk.
Hi Peter, What you call a “do-gooder social experiment” is more of a compliment that you probably intended. Josh was taught by the LDS church that only a Temple Marriage sealing between a man & a woman would allow him to reach the highest level of the Celestial Kingdom; but now he’s in a quandary right? Does he be true to his sexual identity (i.e. not marry a woman) & reject his Celestial Future or does he deny his true self & follow the advice the church has given him? If following the church’s advice was his efforts to “do good / be good” then yes he is a “do gooder” . If making a hard choice to follow the church’s advice required him to “experiment upon their words” (which resulted in a rare situation in our society) then yes it was a social experiment. The fact that children resulted from this marriage is, again, only a sign of Josh & Lolly following the teachings of the Proclamation to the Family. Of course Josh & Lolly willfully & faithfully entered into this arrangement believing that the instruction & guidance of church leaders were actually from God & not, as you put it, based on lies. I would also add that Josh was selfishly doing what he was taught was the only way that God could accept him back into His presence. Is being selfish wrong if someone follows the church’s teachings in a selfish desire to return to God? You can’t blame the soldier for following orders without also holding the commanding officer responsible.
Yeah, but what about Lolly? She was under no obligation to marry someone who is gay.
It’s blatantly obvious that they put more thought and care into any one phrase of either of the two posts than you put into your whole comment, so maybe you could try *not* being super condescending about it.
It’s not “super condescending.” It’s just “super realistic,” nothing more.
Hi Dr. Shades. (Sorry to comment on the wrong thread but I find that sometimes the “Reply” button is absent on other threads).
In response to your question in the previous thread of “Yeah, but what about Lolly? She was under no obligation to marry someone who is gay.”, you have an absolutely valid point. Lolly was under no obligation to marry Josh but it’s also not a stretch of the imagination to understand why a woman would want to marry her best friend believing that 1. Marrying a righteous man in the Temple is a requirement that Josh fulfilled & 2. They had every reason to believe, at the time, that their marriage would be successful (as others in this comment section have indicated they are in successful Mixed Orientation marriages). Everyone’s dating/ courtship experience is unique (though surface qualities can be compared) & I give Lolly the benefit of the doubt that she is a fully grown, intelligent woman who chose, based off the best evidence available, that her decision was right & amazing for her. Plus, no matter how scary the “unknown future is” if they both felt like God sanctioned their marriage then they probably felt every bit of confidence they needed to move forward.
You are right in that she (& nobody else for that matter) is under any obligation to marry someone who is gay but she was under an obligation (from the LDS church) to marry a man who was temple worthy- which Josh was. It was a bonus that she also got to marry her best friend.
This post made me cry. I applaud you for being so honest in such a public way. I applaud your bravery and your devotion and your love for others. Thank you for being such a good example to the rest of us.
Josh and Lolly –
I have followed your post since your initial Club Unicorn post. As an LDS married mother of 5 with 3 gay siblings, I have always found your thoughts insightful, sincere and eye opening as I have tried to understand their journey better. I must admit, I shed many tears through this post. My heart hurts for you both on so many levels. I am full of compassion for how difficult this experience must be for you. How generous of you to take us with you on this journey with such humility and grace. Although we’ve never met, you feel like family to me and I want you to know you are dearly loved by me and I pray only for the best for both of you and your girls in the future. They could not have two better parents.
Thanks.
I love this post so much. So much honesty and kindness has gone into it, and is obviously woven into your lives. I used to be Mormon (I left over the November policy change, as I couldn’t raise my boys in the church after that), and was recently divorced and am so much healthier and happier and even though repressed sexuality wasn’t a factor in our split our relationship is very healthy. I just want you to know that you’re going to be fine. You love each other and your kids so much, you will be ok. You will be more than ok, you’ll be so much happier. I am so happy for your decision and the brighter future you have chosen that will only be full of more love, not less. Thank-you for your beautiful post, and I am excited for what lies ahead for you.
Thanks for sharing your journey and not holding back. I hope every General Authority in the Church reads what you have written here.
Josh and Lolly, I want to thank you. You two are amazing and I appreciate this post so much. I am a queer woman and have been attending a church school for many years now, and it’s taken a toll on me. Luckily for me, I am attracted to both men and women, so I can still fit in in this Mormon world. But for so many years I have felt broken and wrong because of my feelings. When Savannah bore her testimony last year about God’s love for her, I felt that. And in a similar way, I feel this. I am shaking reading this because my heart hurts so badly because of the way this Mormon world treats us. But you two give me hope. That someday, I can be open and accept myself. I have a trans sibling, and most of my closest relatives and friends are LGBTQIA of sorts. We are all either transitioning out of Mormonism or struggling to stay, and your ending remarks in this post reminded me that I can stay active the best way for me. I appreciate all of your words so much. The Proclamation and the newest policies have been tearing at my soul for years, and I find a shred of peace in knowing other people struggle too, and choose to find hope. I am beyond grateful for you two, for sharing your struggle and hearts with all of us. All of my love.
Hi Emily 🙂 I am one of those people that transitioned out of the church. As you know, there are a lot of benefits to remaining active (both as benefits & as lack of punishments like being kicked out of school or (in my case) being shunned by your family). But in case you didn’t already know I wanted to tell you that there is just as much hope & joy (arguably more) on the other side as well. The transition out can be short or long, hard or really hard, but the freedom to love & be loved, to not judge & be unjudged, once you’re fully out can be priceless & worth the transition. In other words, I just wanted to say that you can find hope in either direction. I wish you all the best whatever your decision looks like.
E – I wanted to respond to your post because my heart goes out to you as you mention the choice of whether to “transition out of Mormonism or struggle to stay” I truly wish you felt there were a third option of be true to yourself and being able to stay. I want you to stay, I want you to feel welcome to stay. I want you to know that your words and the words of many others have helped me learn and grow as a human being and come to better understand the struggle many, many of God’s children have experienced. I have greater empathy for what you have experienced and I have felt a great love God has for you and all those who struggle. I know you are beloved. And I hope and pray that as a group of people we can become more loving and supportive of the struggles you and all of God’s children face in life. You help me and others become better as you interact with us and I am grateful for your willingness and Josh and Lolly’s willingness to put yourselves out there to do that. I hope that I can pay it forward with those I interact with based on the unique challenges and experiences I have had. May we all judge less and love more! May God Bless You.
As I read this I was moved beyond words. It seems odd to say this about someone I have never met in person, but I am so very proud of you and Lolly. You and your children all have amazing futures ahead of you, and your experiences will make you much better helpers as well. Can’t wait to read what the next chapter bring for you both.
“Only the wounded healer can truly heal.” — Irvin Yalom
You are good people.
It can’t be easy to have such a public relationship and to have to explain it changing into a different kind of relationship in the middle of a lot of pain. So, so, so much love to the two of you and your children. ❤️❤️❤️
I feel Lolly’s pain. I was in her situation for a very long time and it got to me on a level that made me absolutely hate my body, even though, I knew it wasn’t about me, but I still felt like a grotesque monster. It’s impossible to love your self completely when you don’t like your body. At least I never figured out how to do that.
It wasn’t until I got remarried and had lots of sexually charged sex that I healed, mostly… From being in a relationship with a beautiful women who never could see me the way I saw her. Now I understand what was missing. Hard to know that until you have that.
Divorce was hard, but not as difficult as being in a marriage without the sexual romantic love that our souls need.
I’ve supported you guys from the very first time your story went viral and was in team unicorn wanting nothing but happiness for you both and continue to do so. The new journey is scary, but worth it.
I just want to hug both of you. You DO both deserve love. Thank you for sharing your journey with us so that we can better love our fellow humans. May God continue to bless you all.
Love,
A Mama Dragon
Thank you for this beautiful essay. Best wishes of peace, joy, and fulfillment to your whole family.
This is amazing. Life is all about growth. You were genuine 5 years ago and you’re still genuine today. And you have certainly grown. What more can we hope for in life than to keep on growing?
I commend you for your bravery and honesty. I’m so glad that you are FINALLY going to be able to live as your true and authentic self. You truly owe no one an explanation for your decision to get divorced, but your story is encouraging to me as a supportive mom of a gay daughter. I’m sure it’s even more valuable to LGBT people. Carry on with your life. Best wishes.
I started to cry the second I read the title, and continued to cry throughout that beautiful post. I have recently been through a faith transition, and have often thought of you guys, and how you reconcile the possibility that our prophets could be mistaken. I am both thrilled for the happiness that is in your future, and heartbroken over the pain you’ve endured and are probably still going to endure. I love you guys so much, I have felt like you guys are family as I have followed this blog over the years. I admire your courage, and your faith. You guys are one in a million! Hopefully stories like yours will soften the hearts of the brethren sooner rather than later.
I am glad for the two of you. I never entered a MOM myself, but this post echoes the years that I went through in denial of my true self, until I could no longer keep pretending I was straight. The Stellaluna analogy is apt. No matter how much I thought I was in control, there was always something a bit off, and it was so freeing once I was able to finally accept myself for who I was. One thing though, that is likely unintentional and done out of ignorance but was extremely hurtful in this post. Not everyone experiences romantic love. Aromantic people exist. And just as God created gay and straight people to experience romantic love for their preferred gender, I believe God also created me this way on purpose. Platonic love is not inherently lesser than romantic or sexual love, and while I would never ask a non-aromantic person to deny the parts of themselves that they feel, I ask the same courtesy of others to recognize that my orientation is also a valid one, that I am no more broken than Josh, as a gay man, is. Anyway. Just had to speak up. Best of luck to the two of you!
Well said, Megan. I’ve seen a lot of aromantic and asexual erasure in the comments here, which is disappointing but I guess not surprising.
Thanks for sharing that, I can’t speak to asexuality personally but hope there can be validation there too of not being broken for not needing romance or sex.
Josh, I appreciate your courage. However, I do wish you’d show the same courtesy to those of us in mixed orientation marriages (and grateful to be so, for 24 years) that you’ve shown LGBTQ+ people in the past. You’ve always emphasized, wisely, that no two journeys are the same and other’s experiences are not the same as yours. Perhaps you could correct your incorrect statement about embracing your sexual orientation “in the only way that leads to health for LGBTQ people, including embracing and participating in romantic and sexual attachment” to the same sex. The other inaccurate statement is that a “successful and healthy” mixed orientation marriage is “mythical. Impossible. Not real.” I respect the choice you are now making, and understand that you don’t see it as a choice. My life experiences have been different from yours, and please don’t say my marriage is not successful and healthy. That’s not fair, and I know you’re a fair person. I do wish you the best. I’ve always felt a deep love for you, even though I know you mostly through your blogs.
I can see how this would feel hurtful. Perhaps he meant gay men and straight women. That may make it less threatening. I do expect a reaction from Ty Mansfield as well, possibly even more entrenched although my hope for Danielle is that this post ultimately sets her free too.
And Laurie sorry if you are truly romantically and sexually attracted to your husband you are bisexual so knock it off with I am a lesbian married to a man. It is insulting to the LGBT+ community.
Tim, as I stated earlier in one of these comments, I was attracted to women, and not men, until I was in my 30s. To say I’m bisexual would imply that I’m attracted to both genders and I’m not. My husband is the single exception. Also, I don’t identify as a lesbian anymore, nor bisexual. None of the typical “lesbian, bisexual or asexual” categories accurately describe my experiences and life. I would hope the LGBT+ community would understand and appreciate when someone doesn’t fit the typical idea that many others have with regard to sexual attractions, especially since the same has been done to them.
I agree with Laurie Campbell 100%. There are so many like Laurie who have chosen to live within the framework of the church teachings regarding marriage and sexual expression, even though they experience SSA (same-sex attraction.) I guess it’s too bad that we don’t hear from more of them. But many like Laurie Campbell, Tom Kristofferson, Ty Mansfield and others, have the courage and talent to write and share their experiences with others. I am so thankful for those Heroes. Because of this, all who choose to live within the bounds the Lord has set, become worthy to receive all of the blessings associated with the gospel including sacred covenants associated with both baptism and the temple. Many of these people who are in mixed-orientation marriages even serve as Bishops and stake presidents etc. I know many people in this boat and it seems totally unfair to make blanket statements about them and discredit an entire group of people because it didn’t work out for you. I must say I find it interesting how people who decide to go against the Church and live in sin all of a sudden are critical of The Church and do everything that they can to justify their poor choices. Unfortunately, I know too many good people because of a child who is gay or their own homosexuality and choices, who have become so sympathetic with the LGBTQIA community, that they loose sight of what really matters. This has led many of them down a slippery slope towards apostasy. Like many have said, SSA is certainly a difficult and complex subject. In my mind, there are so many challenges that could be even more challenging. The Weeds talked about deserving intimacy etc. I think there are a lot of things that people deserve like food on the table, not to live in a war zone, not to have a debilitating disease or mental illness. To not have a spouse die in war and have to raise your children alone. To not have a spouse addicted to pornography or leave his wife or husband and children for another man or woman. What about the widow who deserves not to be lonely? What about the asexual person or the transgender? I could go on and on and on. Several years ago, Ty Mansfield gave a great keynote speech at the North Star conference. Paraphrasing and going off of my memory, he basically brought up the point that Heavenly Father may have asked some of us to experience same-sex attraction or at least we knew we would deal with it while on this Earth. This had never even crossed my mind before but made perfect sense. And if that is true, what might be the purpose? Could it be that this life is a test? Could it be that we all learn and grow and become better people, and recieve incredible blessings, even eternal life because of learning to conquer our challenges that we face on this Earth? Could it be that once we follow the gospel and have had some success and been deeply blessed because of it, that we might share our hope and testimonies of change with others? I don’t remember Heavenly Father saying that certain challenges are exempt from keeping the Commandments and living the gospel. In fact, I believe that with God nothing is impossible. Will everything go the way we think it should? Probably not, but I believe that Heavenly Father can make more of our lives, no matter what our challenges are, then we can make of ourselves and all he asks is for us to follow Him. He has given us all the formula to return to him some day.
My intent here isn’t to beat up the Weeds. I saw their Voices of Hope Video years ago. Because they are so public about this and have the ability to influence so many people, I was concerned that some might be tempted to go down forbidden paths and so I wanted throw out some things to consider. I commend all who are making good choices and fighting the good fight and pray you will be blessed and remember your worth. God loves us all equally and beyond any of our comprehension. He wants us to be happy and to return to him one day. That is why he gives us commandments and a living prophet.
I really do wish Josh, Lolly, and their four sweet and beautiful daughters the best.
Nah. Ty Mansfield is dangerous.
So are you
So are you — so are we all
I am a gay guy in a marriage with a man, and I am only really attracted to my husband. We routinely go to LGBT related events, and I can be around several dozen gay men from various age-groups. I don’t have any sort of sexual interest in them at all. I am a married man.
I am one of those people that are predisposed toward monogamy, which actually is somewhat genetically heritable. It has nothing to do with whether I am moral or not moral. It is related to distrubutions of vasopressin receptors over certain cortices. When I am in a relationship with a man, I not only lack the inclination to pursue exterior affairs, but I lack even the slightest temptation. It’s not a matter of me having resisted that temptation out of having stronger morality. In fact, if I had any such temptation, I am not entirely sure that I would want to resist it. Polyamory has always appealed to me, at an intellectual level. I fully embrace the idea of polyamory, at an intellectual level. The firmware just doesn’t support the Polyamory OS, though, and that’s really a pity because it sounds like lots of fun.
I am therefore attracted not so much to men as something more like “one man at a time.” My sexuality is nuanced and has many dimensions to it, actually. I just call myself “gay,” though, because it constitutes a single syllable that illustrates what I mean suitably enough for government use. If anybody wants to know more about me, then they can try getting to know me.
Nothing but love and support for you and your family. Your courage and candor is inspiring and so refreshing. Best wishes to you all, always.
Wonderful post. All of us Mormons (exmo in my case) have sure woken up to the lies church leaders taught us all those years. You are courageous to step up to the plate and start righting the wrongs. God bless you and your family. You’re doing it right.
They aren’t lies. God does things in his own way and timing, and right now he is telling his church leaders that gay marriage is not approved of by him right now. Will that ever change? Who knows? I can’t say it “never” will….because I’m not God. I don’t know what his ultimate plan for his children facing this is. But I’m sure not going to pretend I know more than God.
It well may change one day IF that is what God has really had in his plan and IF he created them specifically to be that way. Which I’m still not convinced of-how do we know it isn’t just a natural struggle such as cancer or a mental illness, or physical struggle that God didn’t really create, but that he lets happen because he has to let natural order happen.
But it may well also be that he will give everyone the same opportunity to have romantic attachement/sexual attraction after this life in the way he planned it to be, and that struggles with homosexuality actually can be changed when everyone is resurrected and perfected.
But the thing is, we simply don’t know. Regardless of what people have said, God does 100% love each and every one of his children no matter if they follow him or not or follow his commandments or not, and wants them to have every chance to have every joy they deserve. He does love them exactly as they are 100%. But when did that ever mean he loves everything everyone does? Id even say he loves anyone who’s ever done anything bad like murder or being a dictator or whatever. Yes he does love them as they are, BUT doesn’t mean he approves of any of that stuff they’ve done or thought or felt or said-some stuff of which the individual truly might’ve felt in his heart was right to do.
I always have like the quote “Everything will work out right in the end….if it isn’t right, it isn’t the end.” Why should gay people not have to struggle with that even their whole lives, if a single person has to struggle with loneliness their whole life, or a starving person has to struggle. Or the person who gets beat by a partner. Or any other suffering. In my view it seems as if the lgbt community thinks they’re struggling more than anyone else, or they have it worse than anyone else, and somehow think their version of struggling is worse than anyone else. Being happy 100% of the time and having no struggles isn’t reality.
One very solid truth though overall is God is in control and everything WILL work out exactly as he meant it to be-and everyone will have an exactly equal chance to have everything they deserve and desire. Whether what people desire and are attracted to changes, or whether God “changes” his plan-NOT ONE SINGLE SOUL will be left out of getting a fair chance for eternal happiness. That’s why Jesus died for us….so everything will be made right.
All that said, this couple has every right to do what they think is right and what makes them happy, and what they feel and think is the right thing to do. And whether their choices are right or wrong, that is 100% Gods call. Because he knows them better than they know themselves. I don’t agree with much of the stuff he said but they do have the right to choose their actions.
Well written post! I agree with you.
It breaks my heart that you are such an insecure person. Your pain jumps off the screen. You try really hard to use big words and sound sophisticated, but I’m sorry, you just sound like a little child. An adult who has been infantilized and never had the opportunity to mature. This is not what agency looks like. This is not what the plan of salvation is supposed to be. If it is anything, it is satan’s plan. Simple question: what if the church isn’t true? Period. End of story. Literally made up. The ravings of insecure albeit well intentioned men who lived a really long time ago and were struggling to make sense of their own human weakness and place in the cosmos? Oh, but you “know.” Because you had a “profound” feeling. No, you don’t know. Your experience is not special. Frankly, you are not special. I respect you enough that I will not lie to you and pretend otherwise. You are one of billions, and your experience has been had countless times over throughout the ages among all people and walks of life. You are not special, you’re not chosen, and you don’t know squat. And, deep inside, you know this to be true, and that hard, cold reality haunts you. You’re afraid is what you are. Afraid of the unknown. Afraid of not having the answers given to you, of not being made to feel special and having your ego puffed up. You are petrified of the thought of having to walk into the darkness and navigate the moral landscape, where you are truly responsible for your own choices and can’t lean on some theological narrative to excuse and justify your own failures. I wish you well fellow human traveler, and pray that some day you’ll learn to be comfortable in your own skin. Real life is hard, but that’s also what makes it so much more fulfilling at the end of each day. All the best.
Preaaaaaaach
THIS. You just described me 4 years ago.
Peter it seems to me this really does hinge on whether we are alone in the universe or whether there is an intelligent higher power. Is there a God above all Who is the source of all light, Love, and truth? You don’t appear to believe there is. Eowyn does. So do I.
Your comment is totally on point. I agree with everything you said; I just didn’t know how to say it. And you’re totally right–life isn’t about being 100 percent happy. I think depression is a great example. People who struggle with severe depression have trouble feeling hope at all, at any time in their lives. Josh said he felt suicidal and that one of the reasons why is because there was no hope of him ever really loving someone romantically. It’s horrible to live without hope. It’s a struggle. Josh believes that in order to end that struggle, he needs to end his marriage. Perhaps God did help him come to that conclusion. We don’t know. But the point is that almost everyone goes through a severe struggle at some point in his or her life, and some people have the same struggle throughout their entire lives.
If someone has depression, should he or she just embrace it and stop fighting it? If someone has schizophrenia, should he or she just stop taking the meds and embrace it? If someone struggles with some part of his or her sexual self, should that person just stop struggling and embrace it? And here’s where a lot of people would lunge at my throat–I seem to have insinuated that homosexuality and similar things are akin to illnesses that need to be dealt with. Am I right? I have no idea. Only God knows that one.
But I do have a strong testimony of the LDS church. I believe that Joseph Smith was a prophet and that all the prophets who followed him were meant to be prophets and leaders of this church. Yes, prophets are human and can mess up sometimes, but I absolutely do not believe that one of those mess-ups was The Family: A Proclamation to the World. I believe that was inspired revelation, meant to help us through these times today. Remember–God is the same yesterday, today, and forever. So why would he give us that revelation only to completely change it later? That wouldn’t make sense to me at all.
I think it’s so great that Josh has such a strong testimony to continue to go to church with his family. I really hope he continues to do so. And if he finds himself wanting to stop going, I hope he sees that that’s not God telling him to not go. Anything that pulls us away from God simply isn’t good.
Hi Jackie,
There are a few mis-conceptions that you’re perpetuating through your comment that should be corrected here:
1. You are assuming that being gay is a struggle that should remain a struggle & not be embraced even if that embrace would eliminate the struggle. This is a sadistic viewpoint. Many others throughout history have preferred the suffering of others if it allows them to avoid mental dissonance with their own theology. (ex. the pharisees preferred to crucify other people rather than consider that their theology could be wrong).
2. You yourself know that it’s wrong & inaccurate to compare the “struggle” of homosexuality with the “struggle” of other things because you try to address that issue of false comparison in a hope that others won’t challenge you on its absurd pairing.
3. You say numerous times that we “don’t know” & that “only God knows” but the rest of your comment is you unabashedly talking as if you do know. If you honestly believed that you don’t know & only God knows then you would leave it at that.
4. You believe that The Family: A Proclamation to the World is actually to the world & not just to the LDS church. Unlike it’s brilliant marketing title suggests, the world never did & never will receive this proclamation (in the same way it will never receive the thousands of proclamations from the leaders of many other churches).
5. You say that God is the same yesterday, today, & forever, but then you go on to assume what that looks like. If I said the same phrase applying it to an unchanging God who was not LDS, is not LDS, & will never be LDS then is my testimony as valid as yours?
6. You ask why God would give us a revelation only to completely change it later? There are two reasons. The most obvious is that He probably didn’t give the revelation to begin with (you acknowledge that prophets are humans & can mess up but you don’t want to fully accept what that means). The second reason is that if God gives a revelation and then (what later might look like a contradiction to your human mind) gives a superseding revelation- this second revelation could in fact be “further light & knowledge”. Consider this scenario: If I pray & ask God if water is good & He answers by overwhelming me with the Holy Ghost & telling me that it’s so good that it actually is essential to my well being then I would naturally feel like I had received a testimony of an eternal, unchanging truth. If I stop there (as most people would) then I, too, would be confused like you are now when someone else says that they received the same feelings from the Holy Ghost telling them that water is bad- so bad that it could actually kill them. So I ask you is God contradicting Himself by giving both revelations? Can you see how God can tell someone at one time that the LDS church is “True” & at another time that it is “Not True”? Not to mention the “contradictory” revelations that are already accepted in Mormonism (ex. Racial discrimination, Joseph Smith marrying other women who were already married thus committing infidelity which the proclamation to the family expressly forbids, etc. etc.) You can’t talk out of both sides of your mouth & think that it’s acceptable.
7. You assume that going to church (yours I presume) is what God wants people to do & never would God tell someone to not go. Can you honestly not contrive any situation where God would want someone to not go to church? What if they’re coming from a radical religious background & they would be killed for attending your church? (This is a true example). What if your church happens to be one of the unfortunate ones that has a leader who repeatedly molests a certain child? The true nature of God is that He wants whats BEST for each person right? The fallacy of Mormonism (& a lot of other religious organizations) is that they believe that THINGS (their church in this case) are more important than PEOPLE. This doesn’t allow you to consider that your church could actually be the worst thing for someone (depending on various factors). Consider the worldwide, long-lasting cause for good that Mother Teresa was/ is. A lot of Mormons would sacrifice her outstanding contribution in exchange for her baptism & quiet reverence through weekly LDS church attendance. There is no program or resource in the LDS church that could have put her in the position to accomplish what she did through the Catholic church .
8. You say that “anything that pulls us away from God simply isn’t good” but you are (again) assuming that being pulled away from the LDS church is the same thing as being pulled away from GOD. Consider this scenario: someone who leaves the LDS church finds that God stayed with them every step of the way &, in fact, their relationship with God is now more simple, beautiful, & rewarding now that they have a direct relationship without having to go through a “middleman” (a.k.a. the church).
I write this hoping that others won’t read your words and be emboldened in their false judgement of other people & also that you will consider that you might be confusing God with Church in a way that is actually preventing you from growing in your relationship with God.
Great response. I would have just called Eowyn a dumb shit and left it there. You’re much more restrained and accepting. I have something to aspire to.
Thanks, @Cult Survivor, for your reasoned and thoughtful response. I especially appreciate your straightforward distinction between God and the Church. Seems to me that that is almost always the source of conflict when religion comes into play in any subject … people’s interpretation of God’s will … as if one group of people’s interpretation is somehow “righter” than another group’s.
Wisdom. May many readers learn from the things you have shared here.
Eyowyn,
When people makes laws that make your most private behavior a crime, when they manage and pay for political campaigns that declare you are an enemy of god and a threat to western civilization, when the label to ur life and children and love counterfeit, when they call your existence a threat to everything good and holy…
You might want to reconsider what you just said.
“Why should gay people not have to struggle with that even their whole lives, if a single person has to struggle with loneliness their whole life, or a starving person has to struggle. Or the person who gets beat by a partner. Or any other suffering.”
This is about preventing the suffering that CAN be prevented. We shouldn’t turn our back on the suffering of millions of people or on any injustice just because one person somewhere suffered once.
Following commandments is supposed to make you happy, not cause suffering. I wouldn’t be so sure that the current church stance on LGBT issues is of God. I highly recommend researching what else leaders have gotten wrong, such as Brigham Young and apostles preaching against abolitionists (link: https://www.fairmormon.org/answers/Journal_of_Discourses/7/45 ), and saying that the Civil War won’t end slavery (link: https://www.fairmormon.org/answers/Journal_of_Discourses/10/49 ) to their teachings that monogamy is the downfall of civilizations (link: https://www.fairmormon.org/answers/Journal_of_Discourses/13/23 ).
As Josh points out, they’ve already contradicted themselves on homosexuality, especially regarding whether simply having the orientation is a choice, whether having the orientation is a sin, and whether those individuals should get married to straight spouses. People have already died because of their false teachings in the past. Can you imagine what it’d be like being a gay teenager, who hasn’t chosen your orientation, hearing from church leaders that just having your orientation is a sin? This is what the church taught in the 70s and 80s. Spencer W. Kimball: ““Homosexuality CAN be cured, if the battle is well organized and pursued vigorously and continuously…. God did not make men evil. He did not make people ‘that way.’”
“Regardless of what people have said, God does 100% love each and every one of his children no matter if they follow him or not or follow his commandments or not, and wants them to have every chance to have every joy they deserve.”
Too bad the church had to shame Josh and call him evil and wrong. Kinda makes me wonder if the church really is following God’s teachings.
Bravo Eowyn, couldn’t agree more.
I agree with you Eowyn. Thanks for your perspective.
May I just point out that a widow struggling with loneliness, a starving person, someone who is beaten by their partner—-nobody blames these people for their struggles. That is the difference. Not that gay people should not have struggles, but they should not be inherently blamed for having them.
“May I just point out that a widow struggling with loneliness, a starving person, someone who is beaten by their partner—-nobody blames these people for their struggles. That is the difference. Not that gay people should not have struggles, but they should not be inherently blamed for having them.”
Good point. Another difference is that church members do what they can to alleviate the suffering of the widow, the beaten house wife, the starving the child, etc. With gay people, instead of alleviating their suffering, they’re making it worse by pushing either celibacy or mixed orientation marriages on these people, either of which actively contributes to these people’s suffering. If church members could see the love that gay people feel for each other, it would go a long way to helping remedy this situation.
Thank you for sharing. You’ve put into words almost exactly everything that I’ve been feeling since I was 14. I am 23 now and left the church when I was 21, and while I don’t feel like I am gay, I am finding it very difficult to be straight.
I particularly connected with your description of a lack of romantic love, and how hard it is to define when it’s something you don’t know is missing. Frankly, I am disturbed that before today I had never realized marriage/love is (or could be) more than a close friendship with sex. I have plenty of fulfilling friendships in my life, but I mentally can’t seem to understand connection beyond that. I had always felt that the world had moved forward without me and never quite understood how, but I suppose that the truth lies somewhere in this fundamental misunderstanding. Just because I’ve never had that romantic connection doesn’t mean that I can’t, or maybe it is some facet of myself that I will come to love.
I wish you the best of luck and happiness in your paths.
Riveting and beautiful. God’s speed tomyou and your loved ones.
So much love and gratitude for your vulnerability in this. I’ll be cheering your entire family on in my heart from Idaho.
This is the most stunningly beautiful, heart breaking thing I have read in a very, very long time and I read A LOT. I don’t know either of you personally, but I want to. This is the most courageous thing I think I have ever been privileged to witness. What power, what humility, what grace. I don’t know what else to say except, “thank you for your willingness to share this.” I don’t know you, but I swear to God, I love you.
Thank you
Thank you so much for sharing!I hope it helps a lot of people.
Hi, Josh. Canadian Karen here (although I realize you probably know other Canadians named Karen!). It is interesting timing as I had commented on one of Danielle Mansfield’s posts on FB which resulted in that whole post being deleted (ooops, I STILL need to learn to be more sensitive) and I got to thinking about you and how from you I had really learned to just shut the heck up and really listen to other perspectives. Your graciousness with me is not something I will forget.
I appreciate your honesty here and Lolly’s and I know it will be an up and down road for you with some feelings of grief. I hope you both have some support during this time.
You know that some folks will push back against what you are saying – there is all ready some of that in the comments because what you are doing may be terrifying for them. (If Josh’ marriage can’t make it, how can mine – that kind of a thing). But the good from your integrity will vastly outweigh the terror of some.
All will be well but it will probably suck for awhile.
Yes, everyone deserves romantic love.
Wishing both of you all the very best.
I wish you peace.
Your bravery is incredible. I am blown away by your striding forwards into reconciling with your truth, and all its implications.
Turning inward to face what is true inside us, and to listen to it and act on it, is an extended, painful act of radical courage.
You both (and your kids) deserve complete, full love and happiness, individually and a family who loves each other. My very, very best wishes for every single one of you. Be free.
Well you’re homestead better be near Hillsboro or beaverton, lots and lots of land out here😄
I can’t wait to read your first post after you fall in love with a man, and have sex with your beloved. Your head just might possibly explode 😉
As the proud mother of an openly gay son, I hope for you what I hope for him; a man as good as yourself to love.
And I hope the best for your entire family.
I just want to give both of you the biggest hug.
And it very well might be the Pollyanna in me, but I think a large number of those Google searches were people like us who are checking to see how you’re doing, in a good way. <3
A homestead is pretty much what my husband and I are planning. There is no reason to break up our family just because I'm not straight.
Best of luck to both of you.
I was so touched and inspired reading this. I applaud both of you for your courage in telling your stories. This will change and save lives. Regardless of the policies of the LDS Church, this will increase compassion. It’s an incredibly powerful message. Bravo
Incredibly beautiful, and vulnerable! All of my love to all of you! It is truly an inspiration to be able to share in your journey of learning, growth, and love!!! This is a powerful example of how many difficult things we people can traverse successfully, if we choose to love, honor, forgive, and to learn, continually!
This was so incredibly beautiful. Thank you for sharing the deepest and most personal details of your life. I’m LDS who has often felt the same way about LGBTQIA people even though I’m cishet. I wish the absolute best of luck in finding your new path, the one that brings you peace and joy.
Nothing but love and admiration for you both. Everything you’ve done, everything you are. This was beautiful.
This is so beautiful and important and vulnerable. Thank you for your honesty. I wish you and your family so much peace and love as you take this next step.
My husband and I sat on the couch to read this. With the thoughts of our gay son in our minds, and with tears in our eyes, your brave decisions have given us hope and faith that he too can completely accept himself. Moreover, your post has helped me personally realize once and for all that living without hope of romantic connection is deadly. I want my son to live, to love.
Your son is very lucky that he has you for parents. If you accept him, and show him that you love him, truly, just as he is, without reservation, he will love and accept himself.
Too many young people have parents who think that whatever they think is tRue about homosexuality and what it means to be gay is far more important than their relationship with their sons or daughters. My parents were that way– not horrible, but completely unwilling to learn anything. Eventually, it cost them their relationship with me.
I was fortunate, though. I had other parental sets that loved me for who I am. My current “mom” is 97. I’m 67 now. It was my parents’ loss, not mine,
Amazing…amazing love, parents, friendship and insight. Best wishes to you both and your girls as your beautiful family evolves! ❤️
Wow! Such a beautiful post. I just do not have the words to explain how I feel, and the love I feel for the two of you, although we have never met. I wish you and your girls peace. I love that your girls can process this the way that they have, with help from the Holy Ghost.
Josh, Lolly, I cannot thank you enough for your openness, your vulnerability, and your kind generosity in sharing your journey with us.
I have been following your journey since that first blog post five and a half years ago when it gave me so much hope as a young gay RM. and have still kept up with how you have shared your journey even as my own took me away from the church to pursue a relationship with a man.
This post resonates with me to my core, and I love you both for being so willing to share that with the rest of us. It rings true to me and I am so very happy for the both of you and for your family, and I am excited to see how it will grow. Thank you so much for sharing this journey with us.
Also, I have a question I would love to discuss with you if and when you are able to. This post rings so true to me. But my very best friend, whom I love as you two love each other, is asexual. She is unable to comprehend sexual attraction, though she understands romantic attraction. To her, the idea that resonates so much with me, that you have stated so well, that people need romantic attachment to someone they are oriented towards, seems like somewhat of a death sentence to her. She doesn’t understand or feel sexual attraction, though she can understand sexual gratification, and feels that her lack of attraction/attachment dooms her to a life where she will be unable to have a complete and fulfilling relationship with anyone because she can’t guve them that attachment, anymore than You Josh can give that to Lolly. She worries that any person whom she comes to love, even if they are attracted to her, will come to feel as Lolly did, and will not want/be able to remain in a relationship where she isn’t attracted to them. I would love to share this blog post with her, for you have perfectly described my own feelings so eloquently in ways I wouldn’t have thought to say. However, I know that she would only see the message that she is doomed to a life where she can’t attach to anyone the way we all crave.
Please, if you are able to, I would love to discuss this with you if/when you have the chance.
And again, thank you so very very much for sharing your journey with us with such bravery and authenticity.
Sincerely,
Colby
Good luck to you both! My sister and brother in law are going through the exact same thing – eeriely close. They are planning on divorcing and living on the same property too. Good luck to you both, and I thank you for all you have done and will do for the LGBTQIA community and church members!
I do have a question – same as above – I’m a married asexual, and to be honest, Lolly’s wording of needing romance I feel might have been too inclusive in it’s language. I know that people of different orientations might do need that attraction (both romantic and/or sexual) in order to feel fulfilled, but hearing her phrasing that all people need that romantic attraction had me in tears – because lots of ace people can’t give that. I doubt she meant to imply that asexuals are doomed and any relationships they have that may only be platonic and not true marriages or can produce true happiness (as every person with mixtures of orientations and personalities have different circumstances). I just wonder if perhaps, if you do use this post to help people of the LGBTQIA community, that the A part was considered with your phrasing, as I know no harm was meant.
I hope that came across right – I know this has been a painful journey, as I’ve walked with my sister through the exact same circumstances and results. You have all my best wishes and gratitude for sharing all you’ve been through.
Colby,
I hope you do show your friend this post. And I really hope that she is inspired to seek out friendships with other people who identify as ace. Having ace friends is very helpful – at least for me, it has helped me to accept my sexual identity as valid and real, and that is no small feat.
Like Jessica, I am also a married asexual. My husband and I have been married for 12 years and while there have been hard times, it’s been worth it. Good luck to both of you <3
I’m not in the “I told you so” camp. That being said, this post feels like a step in a direction that works… but feels still fairly confusing. It feels honestly like you both are taking steps into new lives- but still try to hold on to your old ones. You will still try to live as together as possible while divorced… with the possibility of other partners ok with living close together with a giant complicated family of exes on a homestead? Good luck finding partners who get that and want to be a part of a threesome or foursome parenting situation that close to each other.
Also- two feet in the LDS church and Two feet out of the LDS church doesn’t work. Try just picking one or the other… it feels like you still want the best of both worlds- having all the benefits of a previous marriage- while having a new one too.
I applaud honesty and being open and how you are trying to make it work. It’s just painful sounding- it sounded painful then it sounds painful now, and I hope I’m wrong and you both find ways to make this work.
I’m one who know what josh feels like in an LDS mixed orientation marriage. I didn’t find much joy in joshs original post, knowing I was not alone in my experience. I didn’t find any consolation in the failure of his promise of a working mixed relationship either. I just feel sad about the whole thing. This post I guess should make me happy for you. I hope it brings you happiness. For me, I don’t know what will bring me happiness- I believe too many contradictory things about myself and my life and my God and my marriage and kids. I fully believe things that confuse myself as I think in circles. It’s painful no matter what it is I chose.
Typically, people can’t have their cake and eat it too, when it comes to divorce, religion etc.
I hope you are different, but I see this homestead idea as not much different than you staying married with a mixed orientation idea. The pain of your failed marriage will not go away just because you found someone new you are sexually attracted to. Especially if only one of you has a new partner for a time.. or if the new partners don’t get along with the ex, or their partner. I’m guessing it will be harder on Lolly for a variety of reasons. Same with church, eventually it will be hard to be there.
Please give yourselves time to adjust before jumping into another unconventional family dynamic. Hearts can only take so much heartbreak.
I totally agree here- this feels like the same only one step different.
Cindy, thank you for this comment. I was thinking the same way, hoping for them to give themselves more time to adjust.
Regarding the homestead.
I know you have a lot going on that you are processing, but from someone who is a little further down the divorce path, I’m hoping to plant a seed of thought here. This homestead idea is not going to go anywhere good. Part of the reality of this divorce it it allows both of you to move on and to find someone where you can have a truly fulfilling romantic relationship. This means these new partners in your life are going need and except true and complete intimacy and while you will remain as co-parents the intimacy has to go eventually so there is room for the new relationships to flourish.
Using an lds concept when you get into these new relationships you will need to “cleave until them and none else.” You are going to have a huge problem if you have these split alliances. In other words “no man can serve two masters.”
I get that it is comforting to hold onto this homestead concept for now to make it feel like you aren’t loosing as much. Hold onto it for now if you must, but eventually you need to allow each other to live separate lives so you can move forward with your lives and relationships.
Along these lines, I’m sure you are anticipating that things are going to be amicable and you don’t need to do a formal, legal agreement with lawyers. Lots of feelings are going to come up that you have buried. When new romantic partners come into your lives everything will change. Make custody legally clear now and use lawyers to ensure both of your rights are protected. This is to keep thinking amicable which is best for your children.
Yes, the idea of having the benefits of both worlds will not work. One must choose Whom one will love most.
“Good luck finding partners who get that and want to be a part of a threesome or foursome parenting situation that close to each other.”
Speaking as a single guy, if I found a woman who I had a real connection with who approaches their decisions in their relationships in as deliberate, caring, thoughtful, principled, and responsible manner as Josh and Lolly have modeled in their blog posts, being a part of the dynamic and parenting situation wouldn’t even be a *price* to pay, it’d be a *bonus*.
Anyone who dates or marries a divorced person (or as a divorced person) involves themselves in that dynamic to some degree or another. It’s something I’ve done, it can have its challenges and it’s good to keep eyes open about that fact, but it’s navigable and even rewarding with well-matched people and the right commitments.
you Mention pain. It struck a chord in me in a different way. I have a disease that affects,y entire body. But the most painful is the fact that tunnels form from ulcer in my intestine to other organs. Or out my skin. They can abcess and create problems like blood poisoning and death. I’ve had it 25 years. I’ve used all the biological drugs for it. A steroid can help a littl ebut after awhile it’s a mess. So imagine have feces and such exiting you body. Against your will. Mine have mainly been in my buttocks and lower back. They constantly seep. In Africa, when it happens in birth the women are sent to the outskirts of their communities. Alone. With a goat. Maybe another woman who leaks. Urine or fees or both. Can you imagine? It is a false narrative that these fistulas are eradicated even in the new world. I can’t change up my diet, my sexual orientation, or even pain meds to help with it. I suffer with it. I, too, have thought about death. Thank goodness I have a son AND a knowledge that God sent Jesus Christ to help me through my afflictions. To ALL those who suffer- you have the same knowledge. You need to erase the narrative that YOU are an abomination to Him. When we act on a feeling then that is another story. If I killed myself would I end up in outer darkness? No. In the third kingdom? No. God will know my heart. And where my mind was when. I named that choice. God did not give me this disease. It happened with the roll of the dice in the beginning and the choices my ancestors made that matched up genes to this point. I will be honest I don’t understand all the hurt that these young kids feel and you feel about being shamed for your orientation. I do know that if you crapped your pants in front of a college class and the unGodly smell fill the room, I could identify with that shame. (Lol) I don’t see the Prophets ever turning the decision on A man and woman being married in the temple. I’m not even married in the Temple after my divorce. )
So to sum up a very long rationalization, you’re leaving your wife (who you admit is your best-friend) and your 4 kids because you’re not romantically attracted to your best-friend/wife? If you were straight, this would be deemed a very cowardly thing to do by anyone with a sense of duty. An honorable man/woman (gay or straight) would stick it out (again, you’ve stated you’re married to your best friend and in a loving, if not romantic, marriage), at least until the youngest leaves home. Then, once free of dependents, you would go do something about finding a romantic interest. Somehow you missed that you are still responsible for having brought 4 kids into the world and they need their parents to love one another (not necessarily romantically) during their formative years. Your sexuality (I would add “or lack thereof” but there is at least some proof that a sexual relationship was possible at some point) really doesn’t negate that. A loving parent’s romantic interests do not trump the children’s right to a two parent home. That, is what “love” really is about, not sexual attraction.
Except, Mr Smith, that he’s made it clear repeatedly in the long post that he’s not leaving Lolly nor the kids. No one’s going to be in a single parent home.
It also ignores Lolly’s desires. She has the right to be in romantic relationship also. If she said, “I’m getting a divorce because my husband is gay”, no one would bat an eye.
Except a marriage where both parents are dying emotionally and spiritually really isn’t healthy for the children. Staying married just for the children robs the kids of witnessing a pure, loving relationship and brings emotional harm down the road. Better to just rip the band-aid off so that Lolly, Josh, and the children don’t have to suffer anymore.
Oooh, two Jacobs! That’s not confusing.
What if the “honorable thing” ultimately led to Josh’s suicide? Would that have been better for the kids? Personally I’d rather have divorced parents then suicidal parents.
It’s honorable to admit when we’ve made mistakes and work to correct them, not persisting in denial and living in-authentically.
It’s not honorable to continue to hurt the person you love most once you recognize what you are doing to them. It’s not honorable to keep them in a cage where there in no chance of a fulfilling, romantic relationship. It’s not honorable to both live so hurt that you are a shell of a person to your children. It’s not honorable to model a non-authentic marriage to your children. Recognizing the truth, pain and past denial is incredibly difficult and honorable. It begins the path of healing – there is a difficult road ahead, but taking that road is absolutely honorable. Many children grow up successfully with divorced parents.
Yes, we need to focus clearly on the eternal commitments we make and realize no relationship is perfect. Sexual feelings ALWAYS vary over time. That’s no reason to break a commitment made before the Lord. And the Lord has promised through His prophets that we will have all blessings if we remain committed to His ways. We do know some things about homosexual feelings. We know that homosexual relationships take us away from the Lord’s path. We know that eternal families are to be led by fathers and mothers for good reasons. We can conclude that homosexual attractions will not get in the way of eternal happiness in Celestial families. All challenges and issues in life have solutions. Sometimes we have to remain faithful and continue forward until the next life. That is not impossible; in fact, it is being done happily by many people.
We don’t “know” that homosexuality takes people away from the lord’s path. Until the lord comes down and tells you this personally, you are simply repeating what someone else told you. And that is exactly how they got into this mess in the first place.
Why don’t you people ever listen to gay people and learn about our lives, instead of assuming that you are the ones with the answers, and we have none?
Because from a religious standpoint, you’re at odds with doctrine. So maybe you don’t have answers…?? And yes, active homosexuality takes you away from the path. Duh. Just because you don’t like the answers doesn’t mean they’re wrong.
Pepe L’italiano, then the DOCTRINE is wrong. Duh. People aren’t wrong for being who they are. You’re unable to sympathize with a different kind of life experience, I get it. Happily, for Josh and Lolly, they’re learning to do what is right for them and their children, no matter what some OTHER person’s idea of doctrinal correctness is. Doctrinal correctness doesn’t lead to happiness. Living authentically does.
I agree with you Steve.
‘We’ know these things about homosexual feelings? Who is ‘we?’ Speak for yourself.
This guy is onto something👏🏼
Sounds like if these two play their cards right, these children will end up with a four parent home, and their current parents love them and each other enough to make a very complicated family work. I am sure their two step dads will be just as dedicated. They have to be brave enough to marry into a family of divorced cohabiting marriage counselors, after all.
Thank you. I have agonized over how to manage feelings of wanting my son to be active but knowing that asks him to give up any hour of love or children for his entire life which as you explain is just a ridiculous expectation for anyone.
My marriage finally ended when I realized bring with him caused me to feel diminished and less valuable as a human being. I never want my son to experience such feelings. I don’t want him to feel less than.
When he came out to me, I prayed for him, his happiness, his testimony, his future, him feeling my love and Heavenly Father’s live and the only answer back was short and sweet: “it will be OK.”
Faith it is…
Thank you once again for your strength and honesty and example.
There are no words strong enough to express what I am feeling. You have put into words what I haven’t been able to explain to people. Thank you and bless you!
I would hope that no one will feel gleeful about you finally realizing that you were wrong. Divorce is sad and difficult even when it is happy and right. It’s sometimes like graduation; getting there was work and the next steps seem scary, but now you get to start a new chapter knowing much more than you did. I wish you luck.
I hope that at some point you take the next thing I say seriously. Because you won’t want to. You’d rather die than consider it. I just hope that before you waste too many more years of your lives not knowing, you will have the chance to realize that the church itself is like your marriage. You stayed because everyone said it was right. But in the end it isn’t the whole truth. We grasp so tightly to that mormon version of God and Christ because thats the only god we know. And we feel whisperings of the divine, so we know something is out there saying, “Yes, be honest, be kind, be faithful.” What you’re not realizing is that the Mormon version of God is so narrowly defined that you haven’t seen what all those divine whisperings might include. You have defined God the way you used to define love…without a complete picture. I was married to my husband for 7 years and I thought I was happy because I too had no comparison. But after it ended I took a really good look at ALL of the things I believed were true. I spent a year praying and studying my faith. I saw the bishop once a month for that year. And at the end of that year I walked away. 18 years have passed and all I can say was that I was so young in my intellect and so inexperienced with finding personal truth that I could not have seen all that makes me happy while I was a member of the church. I could not judge it’s veracity because I had never compared it to anything else. And its easy to feel it is true because it has pieces of truth. But it doesnt have the whole. It hasn’t cornered the market on faith. It isn’t the only truth. I think if you ponder that for a while; consider it and pray about it, you might find that another path makes you happier. Just my two cents. I wish you, your best friend and your daughters all the happiness in the world.
Thank you. I am so full of the fullness and beauty of Josh and Lolly’s posts, but my nagging doubts for the children will not be denied. Talk about mixed messages. “You two older ones will be okay as soon as you denounce your father, and you two younger ones must do without those blessings your entire childhoods, until you can denounce him and get dunked.”
Talk about bats.
I know that was both crude and blunt, but the children will have no choice but to be immersed in the self-loathing that was dealt to you, Josh. Their identities, LGBQTIA or not, are not to be toyed with. Your family of “second class members” – just think, Josh and Lolly, if you really want to be standing outside of their temple weddings, if you would encourage, allow and continue them to be indoctrinated into a belief system so basically faulty that it caused you, Josh, to taste gun metal for most of your life. And you, Lolly, to slowly die from the inside out.
They will be forced to eat bugs, like them or not.
They, too, deserve the mango.
I understand that the revelations have been coming fast and hard, but there is still more authenticity to uncover.
My very best wishes for all of you, on this difficult and joyful path of awakenings. May you dream of and find your perfect homestead property. May you continue to hear those whisperings that tell you to hang upside down. They are not the property of any organization. They have always belonged to each of you, and go with you, wherever you go.
The truth of this is in the voices of your children.
Sounds like a condemnation of an intolerant church more than of their decision.
I am so glad that former Mormons are commenting here. I am not Mormon but was formerly involved with the evangelical Protestant church, which is equally non-affirming to any expression of sexuality or gender that is not opposite sex marriage. I have seen people, especially gay or queer males, become depressed and suicidal in that type of milieu. I would think that being in such a non-affirming group is far, far more likely to cause suicidal ideation than not having the prospect of being able to form a romantic sexual attachment. My personal belief is that lasting romantic sexual attachment (not infatuation) in persons of any orientation is rare, very rare. We would have many more suicidal people if lack of sexual attachment caused that level of despair. It seems more likely that the pressure, threats, and even what I consider abuse, from highly controlling religious sects is a primary causal factor.
You make a good point, Kathy. There is so much more to healthy spirituality than just Mormonism. I shudder to imagine what my life would be like today if I hadn’t realized that almost three decades ago.
Just give it 5 more years and he’ll be out of the church (cult) too.
My heart aches for all of you. We have many friends and family members within the LGBTQ+(I call it alphabet soup) community I’m a convert, when I joined certain ethnicities were unable to have the priesthood, thankfully, that has changed. We do not know what the Lotd has in mind. I pray you will both remain dedicated to your families, to yourselves. Thank you for being open and honest. May you be guided in all that you do. May you share them love of our Heavenly Father with those who need to understanding. We’re still rooting for good things for all
As someone who is gay, I find the alphabet soup comment hurtful. Just wanted you to know. I know you’re probably just trying to be funny, but each of those letters mean something. And there are people behind those letters.
Ditto this.
It might look like a jumble of letters to you; all those letters are there because the experience of being straight and cisgender is assumed to be the norm, and all the rest of us are lumped together, for better or for worse. You know; the “regular people” and “everybody else.” Like saying “are you Catholic or Protestant?” to a Mormon, a Pentecostal, and a Quaker.
But since we all have the experience of being outside of the expectations of gender and sexuality, we can have empathy, listen to one another, and work for justice for people who aren’t like us. That’s why all those letters go together.
This is a beautiful, heartfelt and honest post. This is the first time I have visited your blog and I am astounded by how candid and truthful you have been. My heart is filled with joy that you and Lolly have realized these things about yourselves and that you are brave enough to share this knowledge with the world. I have nothing but respect for you and a deep-hearted desire for you to both find partners who will embrace your entire family and recognize how special it is. Go forth and seek fullfillment.
I respect both of you and your decision. And I wish true happiness and love for you both. Truly. My marriage just ended this past summer. He was also gay. He and I are really good friends, probably best friends! He tells me everything. He is currently living the gay lifestyle, and I have to tell you that he is struggling with it. What he is finding is that in the gay world, it seems to be driven by sex. Most of the guys are looking for a hook up only, and the ones who are in relationships are generally in open relationships. He wants a monogamous, committed relationship. He’s having a very tough time finding that. I’m not saying it doesn’t exist. But in his experience, he hasn’t seemed to find that connection with someone who has his same desires. Even some gay couples who he has admired in the past have turned to open relationships. It’s very disheartening for him and sometimes he regrets his decision to divorce me. He is realizing now how deep his love really is for me. And I kind of wonder if it’s the same for you two? What if what you have together is, in fact, true love?
I believe this is part of his journey to experience the gay lifestyle. He has learned a lot and has actually become better in a lot of ways. So my intention isn’t to discourage you, but to let you know what he has experienced. You may not have that same experience. I don’t know? It’s a very tough thing to go through the things you’ve endured and I do have so much empathy for you both. I wish you two the absolute best, because I know you both deserve it. I love you. Best of luck to you. ❤️
I just want to mention that I have several gay friends. Their gay lifestyle includes going to the grocery store, getting coffee at Starbucks, walking the dog, paying the mortgage, family dinner on the weekends, paying the light bill, going to work every day, buying new towels at Target. Pretty much identical to my straight lifestyle. The “hookup scene” is also very much alive and well in the straight dating community. I’m also aware of several hetero couples experimenting with open relationships. Not my cup of tea but CERTAINLY not a gay-exclusive arrangement. My point is, there are all types of people in all types of communities and it’s a wee bit bigoted to project the idea that stable, monogamous relationships are rare in the gay community.
Steph, well put. That is a really good point that a lot of people miss I think, and end up coming across as judgmental (even if it’s unintentional).
I’m a gay man who has been out of the closet for 30 years, mostly living in gay neighborhoods in large, liberal cities. I just want to say that these stereotypes about LGBT people (gay men are promiscuous, lesbians bring a U-haul on the second date, trans people are mentally ill) do not reflect the experience of me and my friends. There is as much lifestyle diversity among LGBT people as there is among straight people. This is no “gay lifestyle” any more than there is a “straight lifestyle.” Lots of gay and straight people struggle to find their soulmate, sometimes for quite a while. If your friend isn’t meeting gay men who are interested in committed, monogamous relationships he may be looking in the wrong places.
Hi Natalie,
Thank you for sharing this information about you and your ex still nurtuting a loving frienship. I am sorry to hear that he is has not yet being succesfull trying to find the right person for me. Certainly there are many gays out there who have different princicples and goals which don’t match our’s. I just want to say it takes time for Christian, paticularly Mormon gays coming out at a much later stage, to finally settle down. After years of suppressing feelings, and being unexperienced in romantic relationships towards men and all what this may include (dating, communication, breakups, etc.) will most likely take an emotional toll at first because we think we already know a lot, but in actually we know next to nothing when handling same sex relationship. May I admit something: When things ended with my very first brief boyfriend, i thought it was almost the end of the world!! (I was in my early thirties and you can imagine how naive I was) Because things just didn’t work out with him ( I was sooo naive thinking that things with the first boyfriend I found were going to turn out perfect for the rest of my life), I almost came running to my bisphop office to repent of my “trangressions” For a few days only I felt okay, but later I again started feeling terrible. I had nothing to repent about as I realized it was part of life! For a moment I thought that by convincing myself that not “acting out” was going to make me feel better was a BAD idea! I mistakenly thought that the pain of breaking up after a simple and not relevant romantic experience was the result of my detachment from the church. In retrospective, I can tell my intelect was so inmature. The idea of going back to the painful and unfulfilling path by staying in the church would heal me would have actually killed me. Maybe your former husband just need more time and experience until he finds the right person for him? You, as his best friend could help him trememdously to find the person worth of his love. I am happy that he has your support and understanding. Good luck for both of you
We witnessed this same experience as a friend tried to pursue a gay relationship. He ended up leaving the gay lifestyle. I wonder if the idea of a gay relationship has been built up so much in Josh’s mind that it will be surprising how plain and ordinary that turns out to be. I think our society is focused so much on what color our cotton candy is we are not seeing that life is just hard. I wonder how you could have felt those tender feelings of desires to marry 15 years ago and are now dismissing those feelings.
I am so very happy that you now know the truth that you were fearfully and wonderfully made, just as you are. Blessings to you and Lolly as you move forward in clarity.
I wish you both happiness. Thank you both for your honesty and your insight. I feel like there’s so much to say but I think you’ve both said it all so honestly and completely. Thanks for doing so.
I have never ever read something that allowed me to really understand the LGBTQIA perspective until now. I have know for a while now that I needed to change my perspective and understanding of what it meant being gay and why gay people deserve what straight people have. I was raised Mormon, I am straight myself as is my husband. I have friends who are gay and I have not been able to reconcile my indoctrinated beliefs with what I know of them until now. This post is the absolute best description of why gay people deserve and need to live authentically. Thank you for sharing your innermost private lives to benefit countless others.
Love to both of you and to your family!
I have read about your journey over the years. I appreciate your honesty. I’ve been married for 43 years to a member of the LGBTQ community. I have found comfort in your story. Strength in your story. As a member of The Church, I have been challenged to stay married and in the Church with our secret life. I understand your decision. I understand Lolly’s need for intimacy. I have missed it as well. Thank you for all your truth-sharing. I wish you both well, lives full of happiness.
Beautiful words! Lovely family, excited for your new family adventure.
Praying for you both and your family.
Josh and Lolly, I send my love to both of you. My heart is breaking for you, but also soaring for you. You are right and I wish you all the best of what life holds in store for you and your family.
First, thank you for this post. I greatly admire and respect anyone who puts a sincere, deep effort into a challenging situation. I find myself rather stubborn, and tend to only be persuaded by those who genuinely attempt difficult things, rather than cynically discount from the sidelines. This is a post that will affect my thinking for years to come. Many people have given plenty of praise, and I add to those.
I do have some qualms though about what was said, only because I’ve been in a marriage sharing some (but definitely not all) difficulties listed here. The post had a hint of making sweeping generalities, that people need sexual compatibility in marriage, that marriages cannot work without a longing desire for the other, that those who don’t follow their desire are living a lie and causing a part of them to die, and that those who struggle in marriage can blame others because of unreached standards.
These generalized statements are too sweeping. What should be done if one partner becomes terribly depressed, or gains a chronic long term disease, or completely loses sexual drive? Or what of someone whose brain is what medically we would consider broken, such as the pedophile, who has tendencies and hates that he has them but cannot get the urges to go away? On one hand, sexual compatibility with a partner is very nice. Having a spouse that feels like more than a friend is nice. But it isn’t always a necessity. In your situation, I understand, when it hits levels of suicidal thoughts, that trumps all. And if you mature and realize you dread the next several decades, and that feeling never goes away, that is very serious and should be acted upon. Your decision for a divorce was yours after much good thought and reasoning. But that doesn’t mean that all marriages with incompatibilities result in people slowly internally dying. Suppose your spouse gets into a car accident, and your spouse now is deformed and in a wheelchair and you lose your physical and sexual connection with your spouse, do you divorce because of that? Your above post effectively says “Yes, you do, because studies show most spouses in this situation will start to internally die, because they now ‘cannot attach to one another’. And people deserve romance and the quadriplegic can no longer give that back.” You mentioned you felt naivety in coming to your current conclusion after 15 years of marriage, I think some naivety still remains, as you’re freshly viewing marriage from a newer perspective. But there are many, many other perspectives still.
Again, I understand what it’s like to have marriage feel like hell. Or to have psychological changes abruptly hit you which makes life feel like agonizing hell for months on end. Or to see your spouse psychologically feel like hell for months. Or to know close friends that commit suicide. I’ve lived through those too. I won’t go into details, other than to say I found myself nodding my head a dozen times reading your post thinking “Yes, I remember that.” But marriage can be more than needing to feel sexually and romantically loved. Not for all. No. I’ve been through enough hell to learn there is a time when a marriage must stop, and you know that too. But it doesn’t apply for everyone. It is wrong to make sweeping generalities suggesting that couples “cannot attach” with wildly different sexual and romantic desires, because there are some of us out there that *do* happily attach. In your situation, divorce was needed for psychological and physical health. For others, divorce is needed as the two grow and mature they realize they are simply incompatible. But for some of us, these deep incompatibilities didn’t reach a point where divorce was needed, it was simply a very difficult part of life’s journey that sometimes can be overcome.
It’s not about sex. It’s about the ability and hope for romantic attachment which is a deeper emotional connection to someone.
I think Ryan has a point though that there are some generalizations in this posts wording. Some on the asexual spectrum or autism spectrum are not only unable to meet sexual desires of partners, but romantic needs. A lot of the generalizations in the post imply that without romantic attraction or attachment the marriage is not healthy to the partner, which I don’t think they intended as a rule for everyone. It certainly is a valid and healthy conclusion for Josh and Lolly, but perhaps should not be phrased to isolate those in the asexual/autism communities unable to meet romantic needs.
Atheist bisexual, so. Ignore as you will on that basis. But:
Imagine that you could only get a mortgage or a credit card if you were married to another person, and not only that, the bank would monitor you at least once a week to make sure that you _seemed_ married. And you strongly believed that you only deserved a credit card or a mortgage if you really _felt_ married, inside in your soul, which were feelings that you’d be encouraged to examine in depth every time you did any banking.
It’s a goofy example, yes (though, um, real for women in the 1960s) but: for people outside strong cultural and religious institutions like the Mormon church it’s hard to imagine how real and vivid the worldview and its pressures are and how they shape your life. It’s not belief like “I believe that plants grow if you can talk to them”. It’s belief like “I believe that this square of plastic with a magnetic strip corresponds to real money and can buy milk”. It’s physical and it’s lived.
An asexual person and a non-asexual person might choose to get married for all kinds of reasons – because they’re good friends, because they’ve talked through the asymmetry and think they can get over it, because they love each other. In the case of someone who’s asexual but not aromantic, because they’re in love. But there’s a huge, huge, HUGE difference between deciding to get married across that gap because you think it’ll be best for you – and living in a world where external institutions that influence every corner of your life insist that getting married is something that you MUST do to be a real adult, and even, in this case, to get into the good kind of Heaven.
Also, Jessica, I’m not sure if you personally are autistic, but if you aren’t, it might be a good idea not to say this about autistic people. I’m on the spectrum and I’m not asexual/aromantic, and I have friends who are “more autistic” than me and they aren’t asexual/aromantic either. (The only asexual person I know is gay-married to another asexual woman. They’re very happy. This would not get them into heaven either, I imagine, even though they’re asexual.)
My apologies Plips, I was too vague in my comment about ASD – (I too am on the spectrum, as well as my husband). I didn’t mean to imply that being asexual = ASD or if your on the spectrum then your asexual. What I mean to point out (and I didn’t, which is my bad) is that some people on the spectrum (some, definitely not all) can find it difficult to provide the ‘traditional’ romantic gestures or ‘passionate’ interchanges with their partners which Lolly seemed to imply that all relationships need. Some with ASD have their own special way to communicate their love and passion and intimacy that might be very different from what Lolly used as examples all people need. That is what I meant to point out – not that they are the same as asexuals. I hope that makes sense. I in no way meant to imply a generalization to you or others. I hope that makes sense?
Jessica–Your point re: the universality of romantic attachment is well founded. But, by the same token, please don’t lump the autistic community as a whole into the asexual or aromantic communities. There’s nothing wrong with any of those identifiers, of course. But–speaking as someone in the gray area between neurotypical and autistic–there is no correlation that I’m aware of between autism and asexuality.
Can multiple categories exist in the same person? Absolutely. But, (again, from my own personal experience and that of many autistic friends), most of us have as great a need for a romantic/sexual relationship with a suitable partner as most neurotypical people. We just tend to have more difficulty forming those relationships. In that sense, though I’m a straight woman, I can empathize with the long-term loneliness both Josh and Lolly must be experiencing. When Josh mentioned feeling “fundamentally broken” or deprived of even the possibility of romantic attachment, it hit me right in the heart. Oh, to be a red-blooded human with every desire to connect with the male of the species, but feeling too “fundamentally broken” to go for it. I know what that feels like, albeit from a different perspective. I wish them well. Though the desire for romantic attachment may not be universal, it’s certainly widespread–even among many of us who don’t fit neatly into society’s default boxes.
Hi Anon, a copy-paste from my above response because I got the wrong message across – I was too vague in my comment about ASD – (I too am on the spectrum, as well as my husband). I didn’t mean to imply that being asexual = ASD or if your on the spectrum then your asexual. I didn’t mean to imply that the asexual and ASD communities belong together or are even linked. What I mean to point out (and I didn’t, which is my bad) is that some people on the spectrum (some, definitely not all) can find it difficult to provide the ‘traditional’ romantic gestures or ‘passionate’ interchanges with their partners which Lolly seemed to imply that all relationships need. Some with ASD have their own special way to communicate their love and passion and intimacy that might be very different from what Lolly used as examples all people need. That is what I meant to point out – not that they are the same as asexuals, but that they too could be hurt when told their language of love is lesser than neurotypical language. I used the wrong phrasing and I sincerely apologize. I hope that makes sense. I in no way meant to imply a generalization to you or others. I may be only speaking for myself, and if so I do apologize. I hope that makes sense?
Yes, I’m aware of that, and lived through it too. When she wrote “Whenever he held me in his arms, it was with a love that was similar to the love of a brother to a sister.”, I know exactly what that feels like.
“That does eventually take its toll on your self-esteem. No matter how much I knew “why” he couldn’t respond to me in the ways a lover responds to a partner, it wears a person down, as if you’re not “good enough” to be loved “in that way.”
Yes. I painfully know that feeling too.
“This deficit started to mess with my self-esteem. I almost felt if only I could be thinner, prettier, sexier, maybe it would be enough to catch Josh’s eye, to help him want me in the way we need to be wanted by our attachment partners. … could have been the hottest woman on the planet and he still would not have felt any different toward me. No matter how clear I was on the technicalities of this reality, it was impossible not to internalize his complete lack of attraction toward me. Subconsciously, it was a constant message. You aren’t attractive. You aren’t wanted. You aren’t beautiful. You aren’t a good enough woman.”
Yes. I painfully know that feeling too.
“However, as the years went by, and the holes in our souls grew larger and larger, we realized that our relationship was not like an elderly couple because, although the elderly couple’s sexual relationship had dimmed, their romantic adoration for one another did not. ”
Fortunately for us, despite some very deep compatibility issues, we still adored one another. It seems to be like what many older couples have who are still in love, but it isn’t what I would term romantic or sexually romantic, but it is definitely now what I would call a marriage and not just brother/sister.
Here she states something crucial, that at no point in her marriage did she ever feel like she could get beyond the brother/sister relationship. I sympathize. It’s an understatement to say it’s hard to be in a marriage that feels like brother/sister. Her reason for divorce is hers, but I personally also agree with her conclusion for her state.
Where I really start to disagree is when Josh says things like this:
“I’d never even felt the chemistry of bumping into someone who I was attracted to and who might be attracted to me, the casual grazing of hands that sends a tiny spark of electricity through both people—the simplest of things. So what possible frame of reference did I have for what love and attraction felt like in a romantic and sexual relationship?”
In my case, my spouse had a wonderful romantic/sexual drive, that turned not just to zero, but to negative zero. I don’t think he’s had the experience of bumping into your spouse only to have your spouse instinctively *cringe*. Imagine the opposite of the tiny spark of electricity, where you try to engage romantically only to get get rebuffed in horror. That’s a common reaction when I surprise my wife with a simple kiss. (The more we both tried to push, the more her body rebelled against it.) And it’s not her fault, she doesn’t choose to feel that way, and she knows it and I know it. And we’re still happily married. Josh has only in the past few months begun to realize that sometimes marriage doesn’t have those tinges, and now he wants them. That’s understandable. But I can say from personal experience that sometimes those tinges are simply gone, or they may start in a marriage and entirely disappear. But that doesn’t mean the marriage is gone or devolves into friendship, or worse, that someone must internally die inside.
Where I really, really disagree with Josh is his sweeping generalization to all other relationships:
” And we had everything going for us: same religion, same socio-economic status, same ideals, great communication, similar life objectives. Heck, we even both became marriage therapists. If any marriage like this were going to be functional, it would have been ours. But it’s not. Not because the marriage was bad. But because the foundation we were building it on was a mirage. The most integrated, sound home will fall to a shambles if it’s built on a sinkhole. Our marriage was built on a sinkhole. Gay people and straight people cannot attach to one another.”
Some people who don’t have that “tiny spark of electricity” *can still attach to one another*. Not all people. But some.
Their sinkhole was far more than that he was gay, it was that they were just friends all along. Even if he wasn’t gay, they would still be just friends. It took both of them about 15 years to realize they married young and never understood their marriage beyond this friendship level. They sincerely tried to make it work. But they were just friends. Once they realized it, they made a responsible and mature decision to divorce. But he’s only a few months into his new views of marriage and relationships and what made them no longer attach, and he’s making almost dangerous generalities for others. I just don’t want to see couples that have marriage difficulties read this latest entry and assume attachment is impossible in their current situation. Romantic desire can flip on a dime in a marriage. Sometimes divorce may be needed here, especially if mental health hits a point of thinking of suicide or unable to move beyond dread of the future. And sometimes divorce isn’t needed, as just because romantic desire disappeared entirely, doesn’t mean all such marriages can no longer “attach”.
Ryan, I wonder though if, because you and your spouse DID attach romantically at one point, if that’s enough? I don’t Josh and Lolly were ever more then friends, while you and your wife were (are). It’s hard to predict what I would do (because we are always our best selves in our imaginings, right?), but I feel like if my husband were to suffer a brain injury that would sever our current romantic attachment, I would still care for him and stay married to him til death do us part. But I wonder if, had he been gay and we had never “attached”, if a brain injury occurred if I’d be more likely to wheel him into the nearest care facility and go on my merry way (maybe NOT my best self in that imaging.. heh). Anyway.. I wonder if once attached, always attached at some level?
I think it depends on the reason why the connection was severed. Obviously if it was a brain injury or some other circumstance that was beyond my spouse’s control, I would stay. I’m not Ryan, but it doesn’t sound like that’s what happened in his marriage. I could be wrong, but his story sounds a lot like what people who participate in the DeadBedrooms subreddit say.
Many people live in marriages with little or no hope for a deep level of romantic love, due to various reasons. My parent’s marriage was riddled with depression and mental illness, then an accident that led to mental disability. I think that the love they showed each other, caring for the other during crisis, was deeper than that of romantic or sexual love. My own marriage has been devoid of romantic attraction for different reasons, with a deep eternal love for each other as trials are worked through. It would be easy to walk away, looking for sexual romantic love…but I believe we would be filled with regret and most likely find sexual attraction/love as fleeting as it is in most marriages. I do believe that this deeper conncection is a lifelong journey for most, and for many a hopeless journey, not belonging only to SSA marriages.
I’ve seen this argument several times, the comparison between a mixed-orientation marriage and a long-term straight marriage that has simply lost its spark.
Respectfully, that’s a false equivalency.
Your marriage may be devoid of romantic attraction now–and it speaks to your devotion to stay the course regardless–but, was that always the case? Did you originally date and marry your husband with no attraction whatsoever? Even if you based your decision to marry on greater factors than an initial spark, surely, some degree of romantic attraction was there at one point?
To get a sense of what Josh and Lolly are really going through, an example Lolly cited works best. Think of your best girlfriend. The one who’s always there, who totally gets you, who you could talk with for hours. Do you love her? Most of us probably love our best girlfriend. But, do you love her *that way*? Would you be able to marry her, even though you’re not attracted to women? Would you be able to endure the pressure to stay married to her for the rest of your life, despite a continued attraction to men–an attraction that you’re told is sinful and must be resisted for the rest of your life? Could you live with that? Because that’s a more accurate analogy for Josh and Lolly’s situation than the old straight married couple one.
Now, if Josh and Lolly each remarry a man who is ideally suited to them, and then talk about a loss of attraction after ten or twenty years of marriage, THEN you can make that comparison with more conviction. 🙂
I wonder if the people who question the need for romantic attachment, attraction and even for sex, have experienced those things with more than one person. Because truly, there is no one way to love, no way to know what you might be missing if you’ve never had it. If you never had chocolate, you wouldn’t miss it, but if you’d had and LOVED chocolate and then when you wanted chocolate you got raisins and were told that the taste and your enjoyment didn’t matter since you had something, you would be resentful.
Despight the length of this article, I did read it completely. I am sympathetic to your complicated set of intense feelings and personal challenges. I can see that you are dealing with a true dilemma which I will never be able to understand or experience. I hope you find the peace you are struggling find. I hope you will be as open and sincere in the analysis of your feelings and circumstances over the next few years. I think it will be instructional to learn if your anticipated “romantic attachment” turns out to be everything you had hoped for. I wish you and your family, and in particular, your wife, all the best. It will be interesting to see how this issue is eventually resolved by the Church.
While policies and procedures of the Church are refined by continuing revelation and inspiration, doctrines will never change, including the law of chastity. There has never been nor will there be a doctrinal change to include anything other than the male-female marital relationships. Why? Anything outside of this divine pattern and decree “violates the commandments of God, is contrary to the purposes of human sexuality, and deprives people of the blessings that can be found in family life and in the saving ordinances of the gospel.”[v]
So, please be wary of those who teach or persuade others to believe there could be changes to the doctrine of the law of chastity, the plan of salvation and temple ordinances to allow for the acceptance of same-sex relationships and marriage in the church. As Elder Ballard recently stated in the October 2017 General Conference, “Brothers and sisters, keep the doctrine of Christ pure and never be deceived by those who tamper with the doctrine.”
Sherry – many, if not all, of our most fundamental doctrines have changed over time. We have a living church. I would recommend reading this to see how there is doctrinal and moral justification for the choices Josh and Lolly are making: https://mormonlgbtquestions.com
Thanks for the link Bryce. Much appreciated
The law of chastity as worded in the temple doesn’t specify opposite sex, as currently worded a same sex couple legally and lawfully wedded can be chaste… Interesting, huh? The law of chastity historically *has* changed and adopted over time as noted by examples of polygamy and eternal polygamy. And God has made many creations in the animal kingdom who exhibit same sex courting, mating, parenting, and life partnership, as well as sex changes and intersex even, all including mammals. God blessed those creations as good too and they can be “fruitful and multiply” as they are. Many studies show biological components to homosexuality for humans as well. God has blessed these people as good already. Maybe it’s time to allow/seek further light and knowledge instead of insisting the canon and charity is closed here.
“…..doctrines will never change…” With all due respect, that assertion is simply blind to history. The LDS church has changed all kinds of doctrines over its entire history. That’s the whole point of continuing revelation. It’s easy for me to imagine the church finding a place for gay couples eventually.
Sherry you are focusing on one point of doctrine so closely you are missing the mark. The Mormon church is a living church and as such, it may change, even in fundamental ways such as which marriages are accepted (think of Joseph Smith and pologamy) We are taught, through doctrin, to listen to new doctrine as it comes from the Prophet. The teaching of the Church in this regard may change, and even if it doesn’t, I’d be wary of judging others that are clearly listening to God and following Him according to their Personal Revelation.
“doctrines will never change”
Yeah, that’s why black people aren’t allowed to hold the Priesthood, right? And wait, aren’t interracial marriages allowed in the Church now, despite Wilford Woodruff declaring in print that the only response to such a thing was to cut the throats of both participants AND THEIR CHILDREN?
Here’s the same thing from Brigham Young: “Shall I tell you the law of God in regard to the African race? If the white man who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the seed of Cain, the penalty, under the law of God, is death on the spot. This will always be so” (Brigham Young, March 8, 1863, Journal of Discourses 10:110.)
That will always be so. And the doctrine will never change. Right?
Gimme a break.
This is a powerful post. Your story will do more to change hearts and minds in our Church than just about anything I can think of. Thank you from the bottom of my heart for being vulnerable and sharing this beautiful, gut-wrenching, honest, tragic – but in the end, hopeful – part of your lives. I wish all the best for you both as you discover the joy this life was meant to provide. Much love and respect.
My parents divorced when I was 2 in the Fifties. I never met another divorced family until I was 13. Your words sound sincere but you have shattered your daughters lives with your choice. Divorce and a ruined chance at a happy family is borne most completely by children that never see it coming. So bereft for you innocent girls and the lifestyle you have forced in them. Sad.
Might I say what are they teaching their daughters by living un-authentically and unhappy (not being true to them)? If either Josh or Lolly became so worn down and physically ill by staying in the marriage and taking their lives…I believe that would cause more damage than a divorce. I fully believe they will keep their families close and be healthy parents to their girls. Of course divorce is hard on all parties—but Josh and Lolly are not taking this lightly. I am sorry for what you may have gone through, but everybody’s story is different.
Susan, The differences between the daughters of this family and you as a child are too numerous to list, but for your sake, I hope you take the time to actually read the post.
It’s possible that you consider it too painful for you to do, but projecting that pain onto others using the faulty belief that “divorce is always wrong” is a laziness born of fear, not reality.
So sorry for your difficult childhood, Susan. That said, not all divorces are bad for the kids. One can point to many examples where the children were much more hurt by parents who stayed together when they should have divorced. I have an example of that in my own extended family, and several cousins who will testify that they would have been much, much better off if their parents had gotten divorced when they were young.
Susan, I’ll respectfully disagree with your assumption that they are ruining their daughters lives with this decision.
It sounds like your family situation was painful, and made even more so by not having anyone in your community that you knew of that was also divorces. That may have brought a lot of shame or feelings of isolation in you. I’m very sorry if you ever felt that way.
However, it’s not the 50s anymore, that was over 60-70 years ago and the stigma of divorce is, thankfully, largely gone. If you grew up today, you would have had the opportunity to play with lots of well adjusted kids that also came from divorced parents.
My parents divorced in the Nineties, when I was fourteen, and it saved our lives.
Susan, have you ever lived in a home with parents who were obviously not just profoundly unhappy, but profoundly unhappy being married to each other? Children can always tell, and I have. This was far, far more traumatic to me than divorce could have been, or eventually was (after I had already left home). I very much wish my parents had divorced in my teens. It would have saved me, and them, a lot of trauma.
This was so heartbreaking and so beautiful, thank you for sharing it. I wish nothing but happiness for you both❤️
Josh and Lolly—
I know you have so many comments here to sort through. I just have to say that I am bawling here. I lived a very devout LDS life and served a mission. The whole thing. After only about 6 months of being home from my mission, I came out to everyone. I had also met someone and absolutely loved her. Fast forward a year and a half since coming home from my mission. I married that girl. I’ve stuggled immensely and dealt with heartbreak. But I chose to live true to me and who I felt God made me to be. Thank you guys. Thank you for being examples and choosing to live authentically. My wife and I are very involved in the LGBTQ+ community and work with youth in particular. I just started a blog to help people understand LGBTQ+ issues. If you have time, I would love for you guys to check it out. Feedback is welcome! https://liveengayged.wordpress.com/
This post was a clear, significant answer to my prayers in attempting to better understand how God’s will and homosexuality coincide. I didn’t even know about you/your blog until today I somehow fell upon it, the very day you posted this entry and while in a personal depth of confusion and hopelessness. My boyfriend recently broke up with me because our serious relationship (being his first) confirmed to him that he is gay. He was my second boyfriend, and this is the second time that I have been in this same situation. Although I don’t experience same gender attraction and will never fully understand the struggles and pain it can cause for someone who is Mormon and gay, I have been directly impacted by it and have suffered a lot of confusion and pain for people I love dearly. I have wondered and still wonder what is wrong with me, and why the two men I have loved the most in my life didn’t love me the way that I love them. I don’t understand how this fits into God’s plan and have so many questions.
However, I do know now that all of God’s children, including me, deserve to love and be loved to the fullest extent. I have been so miserable and disappointed and honestly in denial that marrying a man I love whom I consider my best friend is not a viable, healthy option. I thought we could make it work. But now I understand that I have never experienced sharing a connection with someone who is truly and completely attracted to me in every sense of the word, and that I deserve and actually need that, and my ex-boyfriend does too. This has brought peace of mind concerning his decision to end the relationship. It’s for the best for both of us. But there is still so much pain and uncertainty about the future, as well as the present. I trust that Heavenly Father will provide answers in time, as unbearable as it seems for the time being.
I have never shared the truth of my two similar experiences with anyone, so this is really hard for me. But I had to let you know how meaningful this post is to me. Thank you for your raw honesty and faith-inspiring words. My faith has been shaken more than ever before in my life, but I know that Heavenly Father is real and loving, and that Christ’s Atonement can heal. I cling to those two truths.
You wrote, “I don’t understand how this fits into God’s plan and have so many questions.” It fits into God’s plan by being His way of curbing population growth.
Hi again Dr. Shades. If you believe your own comment that homosexuality is God’s way of curbing population growth then you’re either quoting non-LDS doctrine or it’s you’re own opinion that you’re trying to pass off as fact. Of course, you’re probably joking in which case you are also probably unaware of the social dynamics flowing through this thread (as seems to be the case from your other comments).
Oh, I’m *acutely* aware of the social dynamics flowing through this thread. It’s impossible NOT to be.
lol No i don’t think you are, but that’s okay. When I was an AP on my mission I was shocked at how much time & resources went into babysitting & fixing the mistakes of the missionaries who had your same inability to sympathize. The sweet irony is that you ended up doing more harm to the church than good. Don’t get me wrong, I’m sure you have a lot to contribute that others would find enlightening; but as long as it’s delivered in a way that’s irrelevant, unsubstantiated, or annoyingly sarcastic then very few people can hear your message through the deliverance. I wish you all the best in your learning curve.
Dear cult survivor,
Your assertion that I have an inability to sympathize is mere projection on your part, since I said nothing that would lead one to that conclusion. And I hereby call you out on your wild claim that an “inability to sympathize” required you to babysit anyone on your mission. Please give us some examples if you wish to be taken seriously.
Best wishes on your own learning curve, too.
Dr. Shades,
Thank you for your well wishing on my learning curve. You are right in that I shouldn’t have assumed that you have an inability to sympathize; it would be more accurate to say that it seems like you don’t have the ability or that you choose to not employ it- as is evidenced by many of your past comments. (for example: mentioning that “literally everyone else on this planet saw this coming” strongly suggests that you can’t/won’t consider countless reasons why Josh & Lolly might not have seen this coming).
As far as giving you examples of missionaries that needed careful supervision because of their lacking ability to understand/ respond appropriately to others I can give plenty . . . I could tell you about the companion on a bike that chased a car to it’s home & told the driver that if she ever honked at us again he would rip the f#cking horn out of her car & f#cking beat her over the head with it & left her trembling in fear-(this missionary needed constant babysitting) or the companion that actively encouraged a less active lady to divorce her non-member husband (with whom she had an amazing, loving relationship with) because it would be better that she be in a position to marry a mormon so she could obtain the highest degree of glory than be happy in this life with a non-mormon- or a handful of other missionaries who said or acted in extreme ways that exhibited their inability to comprehend/sympathize with the intricate details that surrounded another’s position (I think most mormon missionaries are not unfamiliar with the common scenario wherein most missions have trouble missionaries that need to be babysat (i.e. serve as office elders, have senior companions who can keep them in line, etc)). . . but would expounding on these examples mean that you would “take me seriously”? How would you know if the examples I give aren’t just made up?
No. My comments can be taken seriously or not depending on their intrinsic value alone. It really is a shame because I think we might have more in common than this thread will allow us to realize. I don’t have an issue with your opinions per se, but your delivery methods are often unnecessarily void of sympathetic comprehension (not saying that you don’t comprehend, just that you don’t exhibit it). A well-packaged false statement is often times more effective then a poorly delivered true statement. In other words, I think your ideas are worth exploring but if you’ve noticed, most of your feedback isn’t people wanting to talk about your ideas, rather they can’t get past your delivery method- which means your real message is being lost.
Miss Anon.. don’t take it personally. There is absolutely NOTHING wrong with you. <3 If you are dating exclusively LDS men, there will be a higher proportion of gay men then in the general non-LDS population attempting to date women, if that makes sense. Especially if you are young and the men you are dating are young! Lots of self discovery still happening in the late teens and early twenties. Bad luck, but NO fault of your own. May your next partner give you everything you need and more!
Thank you for your kindness and insights <3 I know in my head that it's not my fault, but I don't FEEL it yet. But I hope that will come through the healing power of the Atonement.
I’m sorry the heartbreak your gay boyfriends caused. I’m gay and dated a few women before I started dating guys. It’s conplicated for all involved when everyone is young and trying to figure life, romance, and sexuality out. I wish you the best in all of your future endeavors, particularly in the dating realm. Here’s to the next boyfriend being straight!
p.s. I’ve stayed amazingly good friends with just one of the women I dated. I encourage her to find true love and she had helped me realize that being gay is okay, and supports me in my relationship with my boyfriend. She and I weren’t meant to be married, but our post-dating friendship has blessed both of our lives. I see God’s hand in the failed relationship we had.
I appreciate your comment, Tyler. I don’t blame either of the guys and am SO grateful for my experiences with them and everything I learned. I, too, can see how God led me to these relationships. It sucks that it has to be this way in the end, but I’m trying to see the beauty in it. My ex and I are remaining friends and figuring out what that will look like for us, so it brings me a lot of hope to hear that you have maintained a strong, life-blessing friendship with your ex-girlfriend. I really want that for us. Thanks so much for sharing.
Oh sweet Josh and Lolly – my love and heart weeps and supports this courageous, vulnerable and loving step into your future as a family and into your lives as individual people. I don’t doubt for a minute the truth of your decision. This public story you are so generously sharing with us, will be a gift for so many people as they watch you respectfully and lovingly navigate this journey. Know that when you hear words of hate, that those voices are in the minority. You are healing yourself and so many others by living into the promise of God’s love and abundant life available to all. You are giving an example of how you make excruciating decisions with patience, intention, love and care – while honoring self, children, family, and core values/faith lived. This kind of example is rare nowadays. Know that I send my love and am holding your family close!
Love you guys.
What’s heart-breaking is that you actually believe it.
The Prophet was right in that quote you shared. Sex and sexuality were intended to bring two people together for His purposes – only some of which are realized on this Earth. The Prophets don’t often use slang terms – typically, they use the words correctly. The word pervert applies. I don’t believe that he meant it in a hateful way towards any person, but sought to relay God’s position on the issue with some degree of accuracy.
Sexuality is about how you use your procreative gift or power. It has nothing to do with emotion, lifestyle or mindset. Some might be trapped within their urges to harm others; some might be trapped inside an inextinguishable desire to play with fire; and some may undeniably and completely lose all desire for their wife and find themselves immutably drawn towards another woman. Sometimes, it’s not about what you desire now or even what you believe you were born desiring, it’s about the appropriate expressions or restraint of appetites. Like with any sin, the Holy Ghost and the Light of Christ teach and warn us. Do we heed it or reach out to the sympathy and apathy of others to maintain a sense of worth?
People can and do change all of the time: emotionally, spiritually, physically, and in every other sense of the word. Some people change from feeling an unshakable and deep sense of guilt and self loathing to eventually feeling acceptance and bliss. Some people find themselves while others lose themselves. Some go from not knowing the high of marijuana to not being able to imagine life without heroin. Some turn the opposite way. Some go from porn star to advocates against it. And anybody can change their desires and dispositions – I’ve seen it hundreds of times personally in those who change all kinds of lifestyles, appetites, and behaviors – people who run to Jesus Christ and a life of servitude in His arms, and never look back.
God gives commandments and allows us to have desires and weaknesses that rival His will for us. Your struggle with sexuality is likely no more or less valid than the most difficult struggle that others face or have had to face – not even mine. But it’s our struggles and temptations that we sacrifice that qualify us to return to His presence. If you believe your longings and desires are overpowering, consider this scripture:
Mosiah 3:7,8
“7 And lo, he shall suffer temptations, and pain of body, hunger, thirst, and fatigue, even more than man can suffer, except it be unto death; for behold, blood cometh from every pore, so great shall be his anguish for the wickedness and the abominations of his people.
8 And he shall be called Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the Father of heaven and earth, the Creator of all things from the beginning; and his mother shall be called Mary.
”
2 Ne 9:20-21
20 O how great the holiness of our God! For he knoweth all things, and there is not anything save he knows it.
21 And he cometh into the world that he may save all men if they will hearken unto his voice; for behold, he suffereth the pains of all men, yea, the pains of every living creature, both men, women, and children, who belong to the family of Adam.
God loves you regardless of your struggles. He knows who you were before this life, and knows who you have the potential to become. True disciples of Christ will prove that same love to sinners – even those who don’t qualify for membership in Christ’s church. Christlike love does not love evil but loves people towards the light of salvation. (See Moroni 7). Never feel so rejected or out of reach that you turn your back to the light.
You don’t need to ask how to get to that point or to expect the instruction manual to be handed to you any more than you might need an instruction manual handed to you to lead you to hell. When you start to desire it, then you will seek it out – and the way will begin to unfold itself to you. See the talk by Russell M. Nelson called “Ask, Seek, Knock: Every Latter-day Saint may merit personal revelation.”
“People can and do change all of the time: emotionally, spiritually, physically, and in every other sense of the word. ”
Have you ever put yourself in a gay person’s shoes? Have you ever considered changing your sexuality from straight to gay? Can you not see how awful it is to say…if you’re lucky enough to be born straight, then you can marry and love your spouse and enjoy all the blessings of eternity, but if you’re born gay well then, tough luck. If you want all the blessings of eternity you’re going to have to cut that good and righteous desire…the desire to love and be loved by another human being…right out of your heart. Just for one minute think about that situation. Think about how “easy” it would be to change your physical and emotional attraction from one sex to another. When you haven’t been asked to make such a sacrifice because you are attracted to the “right” sex, you have no right to pass judgement on someone that has been asked to do that, as well as lived that way for over a decade. As they pointed out in the post…it’s not just about sex. It’s about love. And what do you mean sex has nothing to do with emotion? It has everything to do with emotion, unless you believe people should only have sex to become pregnant.
Clearly your pharasaical thinking is getting in the way of a Christ-like empathy for this brave couple. You obviously have not developed the ability to listen (or in this case read) with your heart. For that I pity you. BYU science professors are now admitting that alternate sexual orientations are biological, not a choice.
If you were able to feel empathy, you’d realize that a loving Father in Heaven would want ALL of his children to experience joy, fulfillment, and happiness in this lifetime, not just when they’re dead. Would you give your children feelings and then tell them “whoops, sorry … I’ve made you feel this way just to see if you can make it to the next life without choosing happiness now? Let’s see if you can endure without any hope?” A loving Father would never do that to His children.
I know a lot of others will disagree, but I’m grateful that you came out and shared your viewpoint as well as that of the brethren so clearly. Too many folks in the church are trying to soften that message or make it appear more palatable, and good folks like Josh and Lolly get trapped as a result. I would rather have the ugliness you presented out in the open for all to see. And for everyone who has LGBT children and want to somehow find a way to remain in the church, this is exactly what the church teaches.
Whenever the LDS church promotes a doctrine that hurts people then there will follow three camps: The ones who are bold in championing the church’s position to hurt others, The ones who decide that people are more important in God’s eyes than an organization, & The ones who struggle to reconcile the two (or “soften the message” as you put it). It seems you relate most to the camp that chooses organizational policy over human beings (which can be confusing when the organization teaches (pretends) that they are all about human beings).
I’m grateful you shared your viewpoint so boldly. It helps intelligent and rational beings see how toxic the rhetoric in the church has been. And that some very orthodox or old memebers still hold onto those unchristlike world views. If you want to stay in the church I hope you are flexible enough to show love and understanding towards our gay brothers and sisters. Because there is a sweeping wave of righteousness and Christlike love that is spreading across the earth right now I’m how LGBTQ people are being accepted. The Church officially supported the LoveLoud fest and over time more small steps towards a more Christlike church will happen.
Sexuality has nothing to do with emotion? Yikes, bro.
Love and power and joy to you both.
Devastatingly beautiful in all the best ways.
In case ya’ll forgot about me, I frequently used to stalk your blog and then met you guys at a conference in Provo once. I have since left the LDS church, gotten divorced, and my whole life got exponentially better. I hope the same for the two of you! Divorce is a decision that no one ever takes lightly, but in the end it’s always the right choice! Like Louis CK says, “No good marriage ends in divorce. That would be a tragedy! Divorce means things sucked and now they are better. I mean, things still look like shit from wall to wall, but they are better.” I hope all the shit clears from your walls soon and you are both able to find ultimate, self-accepting happiness! You continue to be one of the most inspiring couples around, and if you are ever in Utah Valley again, I’d love to have any combination of your family over for dinner. Love you guys always!!! Mad respect for your entire journey.
Before you make any purminant life and eturnal altering decisions I urge you to consider what you truly believe. Do you believe that the teachings and doctrine of the Church of Jesus Christ are the truth? Do you have a testimony that Christ him self dictates and runs this church. If you do then listen to one of his prophets. The Plan and The Proclamation by elder Dalen H Oaks.
I do not pretend to know what you have gone through. I can not say what you should do concerning your marriage but I do know with all my heart that god is the same yesterday today and forever that he loves you and want you to be happy. However he will not condone sin, no matter how we justify it to ourselves or others. I truly only have feelings of love and concern for you after reading your blog post.
I truly am not trying to be mean or offensive. My heart aches for you and your situation.
I agree you should love and except your self. However, your eturnal salvation is at stake here. If you truly believe that The LDS church is Christs church. Then do not ignore what he is saying and telling you and all of us. Your eturnal life is on the line here.
God doesn’t dictate the policies of the LDS church anymore than the Man in the Moon does. The Family Proc was written by lawyers to protect the church against the likelihood of same-sex marriage being legalized. And there is no such thing as salvation being “on the line.” No god worth worship hands out a list of rules and then adds at the bottom of the list, “If you follow all these rules you can be with me again.”
The LDS church changes constantly.
1) It started with traditional marriage, then polygamy, then back to traditional marriage with polygamy eternally.
2) It started out believing that black people did not fight valiantly in the war in Heaven, so they were not worthy of the blessings of the temple. That black people carried the mark of Cain. In fact we were taught that if we intermarried with people of color, our children would be cursed as well. Then they disavowed these beliefs as being a product of the thinking of the time.
3) Brigham Young taught and believed in the Adam/God doctrine. That Adam is the God of this world. This was disavowed by modern prophets.
4) It was believed that serious sins (such as murder and sexual sin) could only be forgiven by the spilling of blood (Blood Atonement). Now disavowed.
These are just a couple of the doctrines that have been disavowed.
The LDS church was founded by a man looking at a stone in a hat. The days of anyone with an even slightly open mind believing it has exclusive claims to the truth are long, long gone. Heck, most of my friends who are active members would be the first people to acknowledge that (although admittedly my LDS friends are perhaps atypical).
I am Mormon. I am straight and I don’t believe for one minute that asking anyone to shut down such a vital, core part of themselves is noble, or right, or what Jesus would ask of you. Being who God made you to be is never a mistake. Embracing fully your identity is the only path through to peace. Having gone through divorce I know there will be many stormy days ahead, but also moments of sunshine and relief. I hope you both find love, healing and solace in the years to come. Much love.
Gosh, what a story. Someone passed this along but I never heard of you guys and I’m not Mormon so I don’t know what to think. Faith is supposed to help us when we lose our bearings, that somehow this journey makes sense. I’m kinda Josh too but further down the road. Reading his words so much registered as true of the internal conflicts faced and won and lost. Each step you do what you believe to be right but sometimes you don’t see everything clearly, or at least the next step. The path to happiness is not always a direct one either. Sometimes it takes you into valleys but even there happiness can be found. Of all those commenting here, I probably know you the least, but no one wishes you both a better future more than I.
One followup, it’s said that faith is the reality of things hoped for, the proof of the unseen. Your story, more than others I’ve read, makes me ask how faith meshes with the happiness of the soul when they seem to point or pull in different directions, when so many things seem real and hoped for.
Just so much love for you both and many well wishes for your happiness moving forward.
Stunning, love and support you both. .?
Hello my name is Colton,
I’m a 25 year old gay man, who like you had his faith and roots in the church for many years. Heck, my ancestry goes deep and includes men, women and children who were the first pioneers of the early church. I was always the leader of the pack, the one who held “high” callings, served a full time mission, always hung out with a lot of pretty girls, and expected to get married early. I was fairly popular in school, and went to church because I wanted to, not because I had to.
It was not until I was 22 years old that I came out. (Younger then you, but still too old). I can remember having many of the same thoughts that you had, in wondering how my life could really fit in with the church, but I still blindly followed. I use the word “blindly” on purpose which I’ll explain later.
I remember coming home from my mission, and feeling empty, less than, and just unsure of what to do next. I was experiencing deep depression for the first time. When I came home, my mother told me that the kid she sent out on a mission was not the same one that returned. I had wonderful spiritual experiences on my mission! Ones I won’t ever deny! But I was in denial of myself, and that was causing deep pain, and even physical sickness to me.
Fast forward to finally figuring out something I wanted to do with my life after moping around my parents house for a few months. I moved out of my home town, and moved north to go to college. During college I “experimented” and honestly did a lot of things that I had wanted to try for a while. I thought I was bisexual then, because I still had the thoughts of… “homosexuality is wrong” and… “only marriage with a woman can make me happy!” I sacrificed quite a few great relationships based on that preface and belief.
Eventually, I confess all of my “terrible” sins to my singles ward bishop whom I have never met. For some reason it was easy confessing these things to him. After spilling my guts out to him, his response was… “I have never dealt with this before. It needs to go to the stake president”. Scared me right off. And I never went back to church. I couldn’t really explain why until later.
I come out to my mom a few weeks after this all happens, and she is fairly understanding and supportive… along with luckily my older brothers. (I was terrified to come out to my dad, but this fact isn’t important to the reasoning behind this long post).
Then… Fast forward about one and a half years. I’m living with my boyfriend in a condo, and am drinking wine in the tub, listening to music on my phone. I get a phone call from my beautiful mother. She sounds distressed. I brace myself for what I’m about to hear. She then proceeds to ask me a very odd question. She asks; “Colton, do you believe the book of Mormon to be the word of God?” Almost without hesitation I say yes. Then the next question. “And do you believe that Joseph Smith saw, and talked with God?” Without hesitation again.. I answer, yes. The next thing that came out of her mouth, from one of the strongest LDS women I know, hit me like an avalanch. She says; “Well I don’t!” I remember being flabbergasted at the words that came out of her mouth, and I began to ask her all sorts of questions.
Bottom line was that she has always been an avid reader of church history and doctrine, and had questions about incongruencies in church teachings for a while now, but she had always brushed them aside. Then she stumbled across something called The CES Letters that shook, and broke down her foundation. She began to describe some of the things she had read there which led her to deep questions which she could not find answers to. She told me a few of her reasonings and ultimately invited me to read the letters. I did, and found I also had some questions that I would like answered that definelty shook my faith. The letters ultimately were NOT the reason I am not a member of the LDS church today.
I like you had a public coming out with maybe 500 or so responses to a Facebook post I wrote. But nowhere near the publicity you and your soon to be? Ex wife had/have. In that post, I also talked about how I was going to stay in the church, and live the gospel somehow while having a gay romantic partner. I look back now, and realize it was still a cover-up for what actually made sense.
Going to church as not only a sexually active gay man, but even a gay man who is dating another man is putting yourself in a never ending toxic environment. Do you expect the things your leaders and bishops and prophets have told you in different conferences, and personal meetings will stop? I think you have already made peace with the fact that they won’t, however, I think you are still in denial about how they will affect you.
Once you realize that for example, in your next meeting with your bishop when you are trying to renew your temple recommend, he asks you questions 5,6,7 and 8, these questions being…
5 Do you live the law of chastity?
6 Is there anything in your conduct relating to members of your family that is not in harmony with the teachings of the Church?
7 Do you support, affiliate with, or agree with any group or individual whose teachings or practices are contrary to or oppose those accepted by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?
8 Do you strive to keep the covenants you have made, to attend your sacrament and other meetings, and to keep your life in harmony with the laws and commandments of the gospel?
You may begin to question yourself again as to if the way you feel god made you is really in line with the teachings of the LDS faith. I think you know they are not, but just like 5 years ago, are walking around with a vail over your face in denial. I get it, because it’s hard to lose the last piece of your foundation you have to cling to!
I realize that the statements I have made up to this point are bold, but so we’re the ones I proclaimed on my mission, until unrealized I was spoon Fed all the answeres and was taught not to think any different. Well, now I know, and I will proclaim what I know now to all who will listen, and especially to my beautiful LGBTQI brothers and sisters who are struggling.
It’s hard when you lose your foundation, and there are many struggles that go along with that, but I promise you that once you really come to terms with who you are, and that what you feel is not wrong, and if God did in fact make you perfect, then maybe the “gospel” that the LDS church claims to be the soul truth is in fact flawed in many ways. You can find your foundation again, and let go of the dogmas and beliefs that are slowly poisoning your beautiful gay soul!
You can truly be an advocate for what you know is right, and I invite you to do so! Pray about it if you must, for I know you will get your answer if you truly search the truth. I love you my brother, and hope you find peace.
Sincerely,
Colton B
Thanks for this Colton. I’m curious, do you still have faith? I’m not Mormon so it’s not a trick question.
I would say I do, but it’s a different kind of faith than what I was taught growing up in the church. It’s more of a hope in humanity.
Yeah, I’ve never been Mormon but I get that why faith changes from what you get from church growing up, it needs to if it’s gonna matter. I’m ssa and it’s been a journey. I call myself a follower of Jesus and brother to others who are.
With all the political stuff, you’re a better man than I having hope in humanity.
Thank you sir (:
Thank you for your beautifully written, honest post. Although never married, I am a gay man who used to believe the lies that were spoon-fed by the Mormon Church (and through that awful, awful book the Miracle of Forgiveness.) I used to sob my eyes out begging for God to “heal” me, “fix” me, “cure” me, make me straight so I could do everything the “right” way (that is, the way the LDS church said was the supposed “right” way.) My eyes were opened about 5 years ago and now I am in a wonderful relationship with an amazing man who I never thought I would ever find! Best wishes to you!
Religious Trauma Syndrome. Your belief oriented institution is not that old. You don’t have to go back many generations before your ancestors didn’t know that the LDS religion would ever come into existence. Just like all religions, there was always a time before. You should feel an even larger connection to all that was more Universal and less Mormon. Mormonism is where the least of your families heritage is placed through time and space.
It is great to be in community but not at the expense of your credulity and compassion. One does not exist without the other. You have one more step, Jonathon Livingston Seagull. Go find your community. https://www.uua.org/
I write with care but I will not step around God’s truth. God’s word does say it’s an abomination for man to lie with a man. Many people can relate to a feeling of longing for something that they don’t have, who don’t feel “immeasurable joy” even though they’re living the gospel. But Josh, and Lolly, you know that immeasurable joy doesn’t always mean in this lifetime. You have a longing for romantic attachment. Many marriages have little to no romance, yet they have love. What about someone who longs for a baby but that never happens for them? Or someone who longs to get married but never has that opportunity? Or someone who does get married, only to be cheated on when they’re in their thirties or fifties, and never finds anyone else after a divorce, even though they’re living the gospel? And they have to live that way for decades, the rest of their life. What about a terminally ill child or teenager who knows they won’t reach adulthood? What about someone born with no arms? Or who can never walk? Or who becomes deaf, or blind? Or whose face and body are burned or disfigured the rest of their life? None of it feels fair…but all of it can happen to people living the gospel, who ‘deserve’ immeasurable happiness (I’m referencing to how Lolly was told she ‘deserves’ to have romantic attachment, and then she says Josh also ‘deserves’ romantic attachment.) You both speak of deep romantic attachment as if that’s something that life cannot be worth living without. But it is! Sadly, I feel your long blog post is an attempt to justify to yourselves what Satan has tried to convince you- that true happiness can be obtained through something other than Jesus Christ. Wickedness never was happiness. If Josh seeks out sexual activity with a man/men, he’ll discover that can never bring him real joy or real happiness. It will only bring pain and heartache for him and those around him. Living a life of celibacy would be better. But living life with his wife and children would also be better than the emptiness those sins would bring. Josh speaks of living on a homestead with a future male partner while still having FHE, daily scripture and prayer and going to church with Lolly and the kids. But you cannot serve God and any other master. I speak the truth in love.
STOP. This comment was not made in love. You are coming from a place of judgement, ignorance, and misunderstanding.
Nowhere did I judge. I spoke of God’s word, in particular I spoke of 4 scriptures: Leviticus 18:22-about a man who lies with another man, John 14:6 Christ is the way, the truth and the life, and no one cometh to the Father but through Christ, Alma 41: 9-11 about that wickedness never was happiness, Luke 16:13 that we cannot serve God and another master. I’m sure Josh and Lolly have heard of these scriptures, so they hopefully know where I’m coming from, though maybe you didn’t know and maybe you don’t believe these scriptures. But my referencing scripture is not judging, it is loving. I am not ignorant to the difficulty of extremely hard trials in life. But if they claim to believe in Christ’s gospel, they need to rethink what Josh is about to do. Christ can make our burdens light (Matthew 11:29-30).
I think JDavis’ comment and follow up illustrate how toxic the Mormon church can be to many folks. It speaks of a twisted form of cruelty and abuse that they call love. Imagine if I beat my son every morning before he went to school, but I claimed I did it out of love because I didn’t want him to be a sissy or get teased by other kids.
Josh and Lolly, look at the replies I got after my comment where I included references to scriptures. Most of these people who are ‘supporting’ Josh’s decision to soon go find a man to be sexual with, are people who have left the church and who are telling you both to leave the church. They say I’m toxic, for quoting scriptures, the very same scriptures you say you want to keep reading with Lolly and your kids every day. These people compare my reminder of God’s word to “cruelty” and physical abuse. Whatever you do Josh, remember Jesus is always waiting with loving outstretched arms for you to come back to Him.
JDavis, you should be aware that even the devil can quote Scriptures; even Satan can quote scriptures.
If your intention in quoting the Scriptures is to cause harm to another human being, then you are doing Satan’s work, not God’s.
Hi JDavis. You seem to find a great amount of comfort in reciting scripture (as though this is coming from someone else & not you?) But we’ve all graduated seminary here & can recognize how quoting scripture is not as important as the interpretation of said scriptures. The ones you’ve quoted can be interpreted many different ways &, in your case, you’ve chosen to interpreted them in a way that goes contrary to the true gospel of Christ. You wanted so badly to come across as a pure, scripture quoting disciple of Christ who is undeservedly victimized by Christ haters. LOL. You’re like a kid who thinks if they close their eyes then no one else can see them.
Well, if we’re quoting LEVITICUS, I assume that you don’t eat shrimp? Since that’s also toe’bah, translated in most English scriptures as “abomination?” Of course, it *means* “ritually unclean,” and could literally be washed off in the morning, but “abomination” just sounds so FORCEFUL, doesn’t it?
What about poly-cotton blends? Those are also against Scripture. Hope your clothing is all 100% cotton or wool, because wearing anything else literally makes you as much a sinner as someone who engages in gay sex on the half-hour every day.
I’m sure you’re aware there are several places where homosexual behavior is forbidden even thru the New Testament. (Romans 1: 26-27, 1 Timothy 1:10, 1 Corinthians 6:9, Jude 1: 7-8) Perhaps you think no believer should even read Leviticus. It includes moral laws, ceremonial laws, and sundry laws, such as not mixing wool and flax in fabric, or about unclean foods. But much of the Mosaic law is still relevant to us today, such as the moral laws, of which the foundation was laid in Genesis, and is reiterated through both the Old and New Testament. Christ said that he came not to destroy the law but to fulfill it. The entirety of Leviticus 18 is about sexual law, but then chapter 19 names all sorts of sundry laws. So there seems to be importance shown on the subject of sexuality with the amount of space used just for the law on sexuality. Also At the end of Chapter 18 was a warning for their souls, not the same as the uncleanliness from meat being washed away with water. Also think of Sodom and Gomorrah which was destroyed because of the homosexual practices abounding there. No city was destroyed because of fabric or foods. Perhaps you are someone who doesn’t believe the Bible or believe in God. My intent was to appeal to Josh and Lolly’s belief in God and in the scriptures, which they clearly stated THEY DO believe in. About sundry laws, if you read through you may see why certain laws were given in their time. For example, maybe there was no good way to blend wool and flax back then, and if it was done and even sold it would shrink or not hold up well and be of little use to the owner. Polyester didn’t even exist back then. About unclean foods, it may very well be that the laws were a guide to be used with the only suitable cleaning and cooking methods of their time, to prevent sickness from bacteria. I don’t plan to argue with you about the existence of God or the truth of the scriptures. We each have our own beliefs and I wish you well.
Of course you urged. Wickedness. Abomination. Sin. It’s all judgment on your part. But then you would damage your own opinion of yourself if you admitted it.
You are not god. You don’t represent god. You don’t speak for god. You are not privy to his relationship with any other soul on the planet. All you have is your belief that you understand something you read in a book,
You don’t realize it, JDavis, but your comment is a perfect example of what leads many gay Mormons to commit suicide.
No one can lead anyone to commit suicide. It’s a tragic act but the responsibility is entirely by the person who commits it.
Drew, it’s comforting to believe that, but ultimately not true. We live in a connected world and we all influence each other.
Yes suicide in a healthy rational human is always their choice, but you cannot escape the reality that even if pulling the trigger is someone’s choice, there’s often a tangled web of outside influences and reasons as to why.
Saying the community has no responsibility is irresponsible and possibly one of the reasons Utah has it’s incredibly high suicide rate.
All is not well in Zion.
“No one can lead anyone to commit suicide.”
Jim Jones would disagree with you.
You can absolutely contribute to bringing someone to the kind of mindset where they see suicide as a solution. And people like you do that all the time.
“People like you…” Spoken to a complete stranger.
People like you indeed.
Oh, yes, I was told this so many times when I was having my faith crisis and contemplating leaving the church. That “wickedness never was happiness” and that I would end up lost and miserable. Not even close folks. After leaving the church roughly 22 years ago, I have experienced more joy, more peace and more sincere love than I ever did before. Guilt, shame and fear can be powerful tools to keep people “in line”. Don’t fall for it. All will be well by living true to yourself.
I think that it’s true, wickedness never was happiness. And I think that living a lie, and worse, getting other people to live that lie with you, is one of the ultimate forms of wickedness.
There probably are some mixed-orientation marriages that work, where both partners are happy. Somewhere there might be one or two. This is not one of them. To continue it would be wicked.
JDavis, AMEN. Thank you for being a lone voice of reason in this messy sea of misguided validation and false doctrine.
Truth isn’t decided by popular opinion, but for those that oppose Josh and Lolly making their own decision based on personal revelation, I’d recommend taking a step back and wondering why so many people are supporting them. I believe it’s because they see God’s hand in their story and believe them when they say God lead them to their decision to get divorced.
Ummm, that’s not why *I* see so many people supporting them. Josh Weed is spreading and always has spread a shallow message of taking the easy way out, which people find comforting and pleasant. It’s the same reason Chicken Soup for the Soul has so many positive reviews even though it’s just a bunch of feel-good warm fuzzies with no substance. God had nothing to do with their decision to tear their family apart.
JDavis, don’t try to invalidate their own personal revelation. As members of the church we recognize that everyone has the light of Christ in them and can go to Him for personal answers and revelation.
You tread on dangerous ground when you start questioning another’s experience with God. Because then you realize why should anyone listen to your experience of God.
Don’t run around the theme park of life with a shiny pin and pop everyone’s balloon that God gave them. Even if you think that someone in authority gave you that special shiny judgemental pin.
I am with you J Davis. So sad speaking truth, even as kindly as you did, will offend those who want to justify choices that go against what will bring eternal true happiness.
Thank you for sharing your latest experiences and the steps you have taken to get there. I learned a lot from your coming out post, and I have learned a lot from this one.
I wish love and happiness for your family.
I agree. They have helped me have perspective where I have often had little. Love to you all.
I feel that the humane thing I can do, though scary, is to suggest that perhaps something is terribly wrong because the LDS narrative you (and I) have been taught is not authentic. Its foundation is not as it seems. If or when you’re inclined to, the Year of Polygamy podcast is one place to start for unraveling this. All my love to your family.
Congratulations to both of you for having the courage to make this difficult but best decision.
When I read your coming out post I was intrigued and though wow that takes a lot of courage to live in a mixed -orientation marriage. I also knew by doing so would be denying your true self which is not fair and not healthy, which you stated in your current post. I’m so glad you realized this.
You felt it was right that you and Lolly got married and you followed that feeling. And now you feel you need to be apart for so you both can find True romantic love and that also takes courage. And you both feel right in doing so. And I understand why you did both.
I believe you both have learned so much about your selves and each other throughout this process.
I believe you where meant to be together and married to bring your beautiful children to this earth. That was the purpose for THAT time frame.
Being true to oneself is so vitally important and I understand that more fully now.
I thank you both for writing this blog and sharing with us your journey. I believe that finding your true romantic love with someone else as well keeping your family together is the most wonderful thing and will bring much happiness to all of your lives.
God bless you all and again thank you for your blog. I’ve learned so much more about same sex attraction and being true to yourself through your writings. I pray many will read your writings and it will help reach their hearts and help them understand that there is nothing wrong with them. And I hope others with the other perspectives read this and understand your writings as realistic and help them understand their loved ones better.
Best of luck in all of your endeavors.
I am so very happy for you all, Josh, Lolly, and your girls. You have come to a beautiful place because you put faith, hope, and love into action. You have your deep friendship, you have your children, and you both have depths of understanding that will enrich your life so much.
I was an ardent opponent to gay marriage for years. Because of my unrelenting interest, I kept arguing. Because I believed in the gospel, in love and truth, I tried to carefully remain reasonable and compassionate as I argued. Eventually, this destroyed my homophobia. Josh, I am so glad that you came to a place of loving every part of yourself. Homosexuality is such a beautiful gift to the world. Lolly, I hope to one day be a strong a woman as you, and I wish you strength to continue as the journey changes.
I am so thankful I learned. It came before it was too late. Only after I accepted gay marriage did two of my own kids come out to me. Now, since they’re still at home, I have a chance to repair the damage I inflicted on them. Not too underestimate it, I do think the love and reason I used before I came to my epiphany had an impact that hopefully lessened the damage. I continue to believe that love matters. Reason matters. Even when we cannot know exactly where they lead, I believe they are principles that, when combined, we can depend on quite far.
Having very recently been divorced, I’ll tell you we did not hold each other as we made the decision. That moment of reckoning included our last hug and probably the last time we shared what few scraps of emotional connection remained between us. I know this is pretty typical of most marriages as they are dissolving, and maybe the difference is that we once shared the romantic attachment you both write about. Neverthess, given the impact a separation has on everyone, I notice that you seem to be moving along on your journey with some distinct things of value, including keeping your BFF by your side. And that is a tremendous gift. May you all continue to have the gift of grace and love you might need as you adapt to new challenges.
Most of the comments say thank you for your honesty. Not sure you are or ever have been. Definitely not with yourself or others. I find it interesting that when someone writes a book long statement about their big change in life, they have to blame someone, someone always needs to take the fall because heaven forbid they simply accept they feel different and want to change their lives. Blame is where you fall short of being truthful and honest. Do whatever it is you want in life & accept your decisions as your own. I didn’t believe you in 2012 & still don’t today. Just feel bad for all the lives you’ve messed with and how many more your about to destroy because you can’t make up your mind (no matter how fancy you explain it). It’s all about YOU. That’s what I’m hearing.
Who did they blame? I saw them blame toxic messages, not any one person. And a person’s perception of the world is the only one they have. You have yours, I have mine. Of course my journey is about me relating to this world and yours is about you.
I suspect that I speak for many, in “mixed-orientation marriages” (as you call them), who feel both saddened, and rather hurt, by your post. I’m sorry you’re getting divorced, and I’m sorry for everything you’re going through. But it seems incredibly presumptuous of you to state that these sorts of relationships are incapable of working for anyone. Especially after all your talk over all these years about respecting everyone’s individual journeys.
After reading your post, I’m left with the impression that the LDS faith has some misguided ideas about marriage, and it doesn’t seem to have any place for (or respect for) those who are called to celibacy.
And I am sad that yet one more person, one more family, one more story will be used as an “I told you so” hammer, to beat on those in “mixed-orientation marriages”, or those who choose to live a life of celibacy, or those with gay family members who still believe that homosexual activity is wrong, and tell them that they are crazy or cruel homophobic bigots who just don’t “get it”.
I think they explained it thoroughly enough that if you want to say that you prefer obedience to the church to romantic intimacy, perhaps that will work for you. It’s their story, you’re always free to write your own.
Obedience to God? The One I Love most? Choosing my Beloved over myself?
Yes. Yes, I think I will.
Man, you have a long hard journey ahead of you if you think that God wants you to be unhappy and unfulfilled the rest of your life because you think you are being “obediant” to God marrying a woman, or being celebate. It saddens me to think there are still so many “unicorn” families out there, or ones who think they need to be celebate. There is a happiness that can only come from going through this life with a partner. And not just any partner, but one whom you are orientated towards. Get your mind out of the box that you are living in, and you will see really how different your life can be if you just trust what’s inside rather than what everyone else is telling you to do.
Anonymous, I’m sorry for whatever has happened in your life to make you so bitter about another human beings happiness. I’m all for criticising things you don’t agree on, but you haven’t laid any substantial reasons as to why you think they are doing the wrong thing. Instead it’s just emotional rhetoric. I’m reading between the lines here, but if by chance you are feeling vulnerable by this story because you are in a mixed orientation marriage or hope to one day be in one, then I don’t fully understand your post. If someone living differently than you caused so much turmoil, then maybe you aren’t settled in your own path as of yet.
Let Josh and Lolly be Josh and Lolly, you can likewise be yourself and live and believe as you think you should.
I do think they’re doing the wrong thing, but that’s my personal view and generally irrelevant to anyone else.
I’m aggravated with their insistence that their experience is true for all. They didn’t just say “hey, this didn’t work for us”, they said “this is impossible to work for anyone” – “nobody can be happy in such a relationship”, etc.
And they did this in a highly public way, knowing that their story will now be picked up and used everywhere to say “see, we told you so, those relationships never work” (etc, etc). Essentially, the reverse of their original post, which was used to “batter” LGBTQ people with the message “they got married, so you can do it too”
Thank you for your post. I am the daughter of a gay father and straight mother. I did not grow up in an LDS home, so I don’t know what it was like for Josh, Lolly, and their girls. I have followed their story for obvious reasons and have read through their announcement and all the posts above. Not in a hope to understand my father, because I know he was happy in the fact that our family was strongly build on hard work, laughter and love, but with the hope of understanding others around me.
Josh & Lolly have made a choice for them and their family. For better or worse, they have become public figures – people with education and degrees that people have been and will turn to to help sort out the complicated feelings & issues surrounding this topic.
What I am sad about is the blanket statements Josh wrote about some of his beliefs. He wrote them as facts. This whole thing is about his and Lolly’s story – what they are feeling & discovering for themselves and their family. It may help others, it may not matter, or it may make it more difficult for others, but when he said that his feelings and discoveries are the way it is or that it can never work for anyone else – he is himself, being judgmental of others and their choices, their feeling and the messages they have received from God.
I would implore Josh and Lolly to not state their discoveries and answers to prayers as “the way it is” for everyone.
Our father in heaven is a loving God and tho we do not understand the reason for all things, I have faith that we will someday. My heart breaks for those going through some really tough struggles through out the world. I believe we all wish that we had the answers and that there was a solution, a “right” way, a “fact” that would cover everyone’s lives… if we each “just respected each other”, if we each just obeyed the commandments” if we could each “chose to live by what happiness meant to us”. We are all given challenges and must all choose for ourselves how to face those challenges. For some, leaving is the best option, for other that is not an option. For some choices, we know the consequences and for others we do not (or don’t know them all.) I don’t believe something is broken. I believe we have yet to understand His ways. I believe our job to to love each other, to help each other and be there for each other. No child should die because they feel unloved or feel there in no place for them in this life. Our challenge as a society is to find a way to love each other, without judgment from either side, and still follow the dictates of our own conscience, and allow everyone that same privilege.
klarson, thank you. It did me good to see your comment. I was concerned too, about the possible effects of the dogmatic, sweeping generalizations in this post, about other people’s relationships.
Anonymous (“saddened, and rather hurt”), thank you. It did me good to see your comment. I was concerned too, about the possible effects of the dogmatic, sweeping generalizations in this post, about other people’s relationships.
Thank you for your openness and honesty. I cannot imagine how tough this has been.
Makes me want to honestly jump off my homophobic fence I am on and start hugging every gay person I meet.
Thank you for sharing.
Your strong lesbian friend’s story really hit me. Fits the description of all the gay Mormons I know.
I love your mission to not lose another lgbtqia person to suicide. I’m with you on that.
Thank you for your authenticity.
Thank you Josh and Lolly for being open with your story. We love you. We support and your new decision. You are helping more than you know. I feel inspired and strengthened by your story to heal my own holes in my heart, even though they’re different than the ones you two have dealt with. Thank you for doing something so courageous.
Josh and Lolly, I am praying for you in this journey. I hope you both understand how your lives and your decision to share your struggles have positively impacted not only the gay community, but those of us who are straight and believe in the beauty of our gay friends’ orientation. God bless you both and good luck as you move forward. You are well loved.
This is so beautifully written. Thank you for always being so honest. I have been following your story for a while. I wish all the best to you. Lolly, and your daughters.
I read this last night and was incredibly saddened by this post. I wept and it kept me up most of the night thinking of the words you wrote. I am so grateful for the Holy Ghost that can confirm truth and he confirmed that some of the things you are saying are not written the spirit. No matter how hard you try to make it seem like they are.
I respect that this is your story and that you have your agency to choose but, how awful for you to write end-all statements and act like you are the only “unicorn” family out there. You are NOT the only one. You never were. You weren’t the first and and you won’t be the last. Just because you came out publicly doesn’t mean you have the authority to speak for all “unicorn” families and just cause you are marriage therapists doesn’t give you ANY authority either.
You wrote, “Gay people and straight people cannot attach to one another.” ”
“The thing that’s funny though, and that I wasn’t seeing then but so clearly see now: unicorns don’t actually exist.”
“in the only way that leads to health for LGBTQ people, including embracing and participating in romantic and sexual attachment” to the same sex.”
And countless other statements that say that mixed orientation marriages can’t work. This is one thing that frustrates me about the LGBTQ community is that they say you can’t choose anything else but a gay lifestyle and try take away the agency to choose. You don’t need to say things like this to help justify YOUR decision to choose to end your marriage and live a homosexual lifestyle.
I am in a mixed orientation marriage and I can understand the pain and the things you guys have gone through but I have true joy in my marriage and so does my husband. People are letting you write your own story, support others in theirs no matter if it doesn’t agree with your agenda and you could have done that by not putting all these end all statements that mixed orientation marriages can’t work. Everyone is different and sexuality is on a scale I am sure you know that…so everyone is different and IT CAN WORK.
Good luck to the both of you and may god bless your little children.
Amen!
I suspect a lot of us “unicorns” had sleepless nights, after reading this.
People tend to sleep well when they are confident in what they are doing. If other’s beliefs and stories that don’t jive with your own bother you, I’d recommend looking within and examining where that anxiety is coming from.
Indeed. It hit me as if it was actually my husband informing me about his decision of divorce. The Weeds have been our only proof that living in MOM is possible. We live in Poland, where unfortunately there are no support groups, even in big cities. The only support/counseling we got were from psychologists/psychotherapists/sexologists (the basic message was divorce is the only way) and Catholic Church (take this cross and carry it).
We’re in our late thirties, and we’ve been together for 9 years now, out of which three last years were filled with a lot of crisis periods, even 2 weeks separation at some point, but we’re still together. Same as Josh and Lolly, we’re best friends, we love cuddling, spend time together, share interests. Our sexual live’s happy with occasional struggles. We fear one day my husband won’t be able to show me his love in an intimate way. We fear we won’t be able to have children due to his neurosis. We fear we’ll end up being lonely.
Still, our method is trying not to dwell upon it more than necessary, spend time doing things that bring us together and make us happy, and finally be responsible for decisions we’ve taken (even though neither of us had been aware of my husband’s homosexuality).
I wish you all a lot of strength in either decision you take, for there isn’t any that is going to be easy. And do not rush into making one, don’t take Lolly and Josh’s model as paradigm. It’s their way, not necessarily ours. Maybe it is best, but who knows that. It might happen that the world out there isn’t any better than the one you’ve created.
And also, what we believe in today might not be so obvious in future. We’re in a never ending learning process.
Anyway, that’s my experience, I hope someone finds it helpful.
How dare you share your story. Oh wait….you mean we’re all allowed to share our stories and the truths we’ve learned? Interesting concept…
Share your story. But don’t tell other people they can’t share theirs or what they’ve learned from it. From my understanding, those things you’re offended by are things he learned from his personal experience, his professional experience with many clients, and research done by others.
Keep kidding yourself if you must, but the amount of passion you feel to defend your view only tells me how much of a burden this is on your own self and marriage. Who are you trying to convince? Yourself or us?
You don’t get it, and that’s OK. Stay calm, have courage, and wait for the signs.
That was incredibly unkind. It has been hard but there are lots of marriages that have unique situations that are difficult. There are lots of other trials I can’t imagine dealing with and I feel grateful for the lot I have been given. I’m not trying to convince myself or any of you. I really am truly happy. I love my life, my daughter, and my husband. I have never experienced such joy.
I believe agency to be an very important part of the plan. And I want others who are living this lifestyle and in happy, healthy mixed orientation relationships to know that what he has said is his own experience and that his marriage is not your marriage and to not be discouraged. Also I respect his and Lolly’s agency to choose. I have my choice and you have your choice. How beautiful is that.
There is a reason so many were attracted to his initial post of them coming out. People did see pure Christ like love in their actions. How they loved and cared for one another and their children. How they bore one another’s burdens. This is how we should all strive to be in our family and friendships. We should love one another in our circumstance.
Each of us has our own individual story — indeed, many of them — and they are perhaps like a repeating dream, that changes day by day. I too, after nearly 40 years of marriage to my best friend read this last night and wept. My story — today at least — happens to involve a committed relationship where neither of us has felt drawn to same sex others. But, at least one of our many children is so attracted. My story — at least today — involves me living a committed faith life serving in and attending the LDS church. Labels are so easily attached, and can be helpful, but can also be so very damning and damaging. Let us all pray to share with love and grace and to learn from one another’s stories. Let us also allow room for each person to have their own experience in their own time without our expectation that they must conform to our story. God bless us all, everyone.
Thank you for commenting on this. I respect this blog post, but I do not believe that it speaks for the entire Unicorn community. Each marriage is different and consequently has their own difficulties. My husband and I struggle with reacting too quickly to situations that may be a little tense. We do not struggle with feeling genuine, romantic, passionate love and companionship with one another. I am not saying that our marriage is better than any one else’s, just different. I hope that we as an LDS community and as humans in general, will continue on the path towards celebrating diversity. We need to stop the generalizations and stereotyping of others. It only hurts ourselves.
Lolly and Josh, I sincerely hope that your are able to remain close to God and close to one another, and that your children will live happy, healthy lives. I hope that you do not let anger or embarrassment fuel your future decisions either. We love you and we are still rooting for you!
I bet a lot of women married to gay men had trouble sleeping after reading this, but probably because deep down in the stillness of your heart you know Josh is right.
Josh is neither right nor wrong. This is his experience. It is your choice to believe he is right. Please don’t assume you know what someone is feeling “deep down in the stillness” of their hearts.
Let’s give Josh and Lolly the benefit of the doubt. Maybe when he was saying gay people, he actually meant people that are gay, not bisexual. It seems reasonable that bisexual people can make a mixed orientation marriage work precisely because they aren’t gay.
Is this Mrs. IDM? Anyway, I imagine it is terrifying for other MOM to hear of this. Terror can result in anger which can result in all caps.
Further, the spirit told me Josh and Lolly are on the right track so I guess we cancel each other out.
You hold on. These people are trying to justify the unjustifiable. It’s sad, but it’s not everyone. Ignore their ignorance. People can and do make it work.
By “sexuality is on a scale” you mean bisexual people exist. Bisexual people can fall in love with and marry people of another gender, and make it work. Nobody has argued that that is not the case. Josh is not bisexual, though. Josh is gay. Josh is at one end of that scale, which means that he cannot romantically love a woman.
Well said!!!
Thank you for sharing. What a beautiful, touching post. This is the first time I have heard your story. I wish you all the best. The spirit burns strong in the LGBTQIA community.
Love,
A Mama Dragon
I appreciate so much your honesty and for your willingness to allow the world into your innermost feelings and thoughts. Such vulnerability is so brave and helps us understand better those who are going through similar things. Thank you for that! I’m glad I read this and feel such compassion for your situation. It is one of the most difficult things to belong to a religion that does not allow the type of relationship you long for Josh. I would just end by saying that even with this great dilemma you’ve described I would encourage you to stay true to the covenants you’ve made in the temple. Not just the sealing but also the endowment. Nothing in this world should separate us from the serious and powerful promises we’ve made. Life is so short and this time is our time to be tested and to prove that no matter what happens we will always be true! It’s very hard to stay true when we don’t understand all things and can’t explain the reasons why. However like Adam who obeyed for a time not knowing the reason, so must we. I pray for your family and wish you the very very best!
Jennifer, your example of Adam obeying without knowing why is interesting. Adam would have stayed in the garden if it was up to him. Eve chose to risk it all to learn for themselves, grow, gain wisdom and not remain in safety or stay for fear of disobeying. I think there’s some lessons there for all of us to have the course to step into the darkness if the Spirit/God is leading us to.
I cry with you. Lolly and Josh, I cry with and for you. I came out gay and left my wife of 27 years just shortly after you came out, too, and I even thought about making the 4 hour drive from Richland, WA over to see you, Josh, for therapy with my now ex-wife. I only know this: I am deeply happier now married to a man than I was in my depressed 49 years of hiding in the closet. I’m no longer Mormon, either. I am friends with Ben Shafer and know intimately of his alliance with us, the LGBTQIA LDS community, and I am glad he is your friend and support, too. I recommend Affirmation LDS as a great support for you. Us “Fathers in Affirmation” are in our facebook group talking wildly about you, Josh, and Lolly may benefit from the Affirmation MOM group, too. Peace, joy, and happiness to you and your family, Lolly and Josh, Josh and Lolly.
A big Mams Dragon hug for both of you as you start this new chapter!
God bless you both and your beautiful family. It took a long time but I read your entire post and it opened my heart and mind a little wider to the simple truth that God’s love is perfect and He alone loves us perfectly. I’m so glad that you both have found a way to accept his love and live your lives honestly. Thanks for sharing, however difficult. I wish I knew you IRL and I could just give you a gigantic hug!
This is so brave, and so hard. As a queer woman and a pastor, my heart goes out to you two as you continue to live into the best life — the life abundant promised in Jesus. I believe that life abundant is there for LGBTQ people, fully affirmed and allowed to live into their sexual orientation and gender identity. I pray that both of you continue to find healing and support, that your children rejoice in how deep your love for each other has been shown, and that new life arises as the old ways go into the past. If you’re ever in Minnesota, you have a place to stay at my home. <3
I have quietly waited since I first read your unicorn post all those years ago. I wondered when the realization would hit. And I am grateful that it has…life is short, and full of wondrous things. Both of you deserve happiness and love and the full human experience.
May the world continue to open and unfold for both of you. Once you step outside the carefully crafted LDS box, you realize quite plainly that it is not as scary as one was taught to believe. On the contrary, there is more beauty and breathtaking moments of pure joy on an everyday basis than there ever was inside the box.
Amen to that
Of course you were waiting. Everyone was. Accepting a lie about yourself and pretending to live it as truth will always end in disaster.
No one is born gay, no one has to be gay.
Fuck you, Drew. Like…really. Fuck you.
What do you do every day to help yourself choose to be straight? How do you reinforce your straightness? When you catch yourself looking at another man in lust, what do you do, every day, to help subvert that? When you wake up from happy dreams of other men, how do you distract your waking mind? How much time do you spend everyday choosing to be straight?
‘Cause, I mean, that’s what you’re saying you do, right?
One straw man after another. And a few mixed metaphors. Not very effective.
You don’t choose to do something that is biologically and instinctively hardwired and ensures the continuation of the species. Thoughts and feelings become actions, and vice versa.
Nice try.
Thank you so much for your honest and brave account. So much love to you and your family! 💗💗💗
So so so much love to you. A marriage ending is complicated enough and your situation has a few extra twists and turns. Thank you, thank you, thank you for sharing. I was also married to a gay man, and we loved each other very much. If you experience what we did, the pain of ending it is deep but living your life without this weight, although it will take some time to fully realize, will bring you joy you can’t imagine. And thank you for your love of all of our LGBTQ family.
Josh and Lolly,
Thank you for sharing this and being so vulnerable and brave! I have learned so much from what you’ve shared.
You have helped me finally understand on a level I hadn’t previously grasped. I want to be understanding, accepting and loving of everyone, no matter their position or orientation. I had thought that a gay person staying single and celibate wasn’t much different than a single or widowed person who was celibate. Now I see (and hopefully understand) the difference. Thank you so much.
Every person needs to decide for themselves what works. You and Lolly did what was best and right when you got married. You have produced an incredibly beautiful family, which, I’m sure, was part of God’s plan. Now you have progressed to the point where you understand a new plan. Everyone needs to be willing to look to Heavenly Father for direction in whatever stage of life we’re in. Our path can change. I’m sure there are many mixed-marriage couples who are exactly where they want to be. Others, such as you and Lolly, have realized that your path has changed. Hopefully we can be Christ-like enough to allow everyone to live life in the way that is true to themselves, without judgment,–whatever that might be.
Two words: eternal commitment. We all need to ponder what that entails.
XOXO
Josh and Lolly,
I, and openly Queer Lutheran pastor, read and shared your story five years ago.
Your love and faithfulness were obvious and beautiful in that post. This made it more powerful and beautiful, and this more dangerous, than similar posts.
And yet I felt your love and faith were real.
I am glad your love and faith have led you to this place of healing. I see God’s liberation in your story. And I thank you for your apology.
(I know this complicated your story, but I would invite you to consider that you have once again made the mistake of assuming that your deepest truths must be true for everybody. Asexual and aromantic people exist, and that is also beautiful and good and a gift from a loving God.)
Wow. Just wow. So much love to you and your family. So much hope for healing and wholeness in the world. God bless and keep you both in your future as a family.
Wow. Just wow. So much love to you and your family. So much hope for healing and wholeness in the world. God bless and keep you both in your future as a family.
Not totally sure how you’re planning on staying in church when you’ll be looking for a new relationship that is including sex with the same-sex. Kinda feel like you’re fooling yourself and will be exiting religion slowly. I don’t see a “homestead” situation happening. I see a textbook scenario here of you finding a guy, getting super fit, getting married and your hubs wanting your own lives. Not away from your children, I know you’ll be with someone that loves your girls as his own, but not seeing a compound living environment happening. Lolly kind of made a hurtful statement about those that don’t have romantic relationships are living an unhealthy life. I’m sure she didn’t realize what she was saying as a whole, but there are so many people all over just not able to have an opportunity to have a romantic relationship and in no way is there something wrong or “unhealthy” about their life. I wish only true happiness for both if you, but what you have planned seems like more of fooling yourselves. I’m LDS, but it seems your full happiness is to break away completely and do your own thing. At least that seems to be what others say can only happen for you to be happy and true to yourself.
There are loads of problems with your comment, but I’ll focus only on being hurt by Lolly’s remark. There is a difference between those who can’t find a romantic relationship because they haven’t found the right person and those LGB folks who DO find the right person but are told that they can’t be with them. Lolly recognizes that it is not fair for Josh to be forced into a relationship where he does not love the other person, and it is not fair for herself to be forced into a relationship which does not allow her to be loved.
The Church’s narrative encourages this kind of relationship. Single folks are in a completely different situation and it’s more than a little disgusting that you’re trying to subvert the conversation by bringing attention to your own unrelated situation. #StraightSupremacy
I feel your anger and hate in these threads has made you misunderstand me. Lolly said “And that is what human beings need to be healthy. All of us. Romantic attachment. It’s one of the main purposes of life!…God designed us to need and want romantic attachment.” My statement was inrefernce to those who are Asexual and don’t have that “romantic” desire. What of them? Are they concidered un “healthy”? Are the missing out on the “main purpose of life”? Does God expect Asexuals to “need and want romantic attachment”? No. No to any of what she’s saying about this. This can be hurtful to those that don’t have control over this what’s so ever. I’m not sure what you’re talking about with the thing with single people or straight people. I made no mention of that. I feel bad that you misunderstood. So sorry.
Asexual folks are a completely different story than what you were talking about, Tabitha. You were talking about people who are “just not able to have an opportunity to have a romantic relationship.” That’s being single, not being asexual.
That said, this post is not about asexuality and it’s pathetic to try to make it about that. Asexuality is not part of the conversation this post is trying to generate.
I happy to know you know me so well. I wish you well and LOTS of peace in your heart.
As an active Mormon with a brother who is gay, I appreciate hearing your sincere feelings. I think it will help me be more empathetic. I have heard of gay men in healthy gay relationships that have left for a mixed orientation marriage. I am curious to see what differences you will experience between the two relationships. It is a dangerous move to move away from the principles taught by the Church and still think you can keep all the joy that comes with it. Just stay close to God and stay humble as you travel these new waters. And have your kids keep an eye on you. Somehow kids know when we are changing in dangerous ways that no one else notices. Also, I think people have to be careful with the way they think about “romantic relationships”. Attraction is important but if we all had to feel very attracted and butterflies in our stomach ever time we looked at our spouse to feel that we “really love” them, then probably most of us would get a new spouse pretty often, just for attractive drama’s sake. I’m just saying, people have to be careful. Life and romance is not a movie. It’s way better, but it’s not as dramatic and romance is not all about butterflies. And if you want to know about in consistant sex drive and desire, just talk to pregnant lady. Sometimes it happens and it’s okay and a lot of it is psychological as well as hormonal.
Very interested to see how things will be for you guys in the future.
Thank you for this beautiful, heart-exposing, difficult post. I am a friend of the Heffernans and a fellow psychotherapist in the PNW. You could not be more right about what you’re saying. Without attachment to those we are oriented to, we die. It’s not about choice; it’s science and biology, completely backed by research. I really respect your journey and have followed it from the beginning with interest. I am an atheist but grew up Catholic with similar messages about the LGBTQIA community. I just wanted to say that you have another supporter out here in the world and I wish you and your family TONS of luck and love in life!
Geez, this is a mess and I remember when they went public in 2012 and I, like many of you, felt that this could only end in disaster. I am not fully aware of all the dynamics here – no one is. But to all of you praising Josh, I think you need to take a second look. Its obvious by the tone of the post that it is, and has always been, about Josh. Josh is selfish. Josh lied to himself and convinced a young woman to marry him knowing who he was for whatever reason. And she went along with it. Not only that but they decided to have kids on top of all this. And the kids are the ones who will ultimately lose in all this.
As a family therapist, Josh is fully aware of the damage he is about to cause to this his kids. They are the real victim here. Shame on you, Josh. You are not a hero.
Yes the apology to the LGBT community was nice. WHAT ABOUT THE APOLOGY TO YOUR WIFE AND KIDS?
There’s so much love being poured out on Josh here. What about Lolly?
Lolly, today is a new day for you. You are not young and naive anymore. You now have a full life in front of you. You now have an opportunity to find out what true love is. You now have an opportunity to find a man who will love you as a woman and be a co-equal in the realitionship. I highly suggest finding a man that treats you like a goddess as you should be treated. I hope you find a man who will love your daughters. I hope you will find a man who will take you to the LDS temple and honor his convanents. If you can find him, life is about to get way better for you in so so many ways. You will no longer be living a lie and you will know that everytime he is with you it is about you and not him (or so I hope it will be). Oh and yeah, I hope you find a man who is ok dealing with Josh’s BS (as a step dad – he will also have to put up with Mr. LookAtMe!)
Most of all I am so sad for the children here. It was a very poor decision to have kids knowing this could be an outcome. That’s on both of you. I hope you will both be committed to them and their well being. Josh, as selfish as you are this will be hard but you need to put your kids first before everything else. I hope you at least do that one right thing.
Fuck you and your disrespect for a man who really was trying SO hard to do the right thing.
Trying is relative. But nice civility there, “GEM.”
Chris, as a therapist I’m surprised you paint Lolly into a victim role with so little knowledge about their own family dynamics. This brash analysis isn’t helpful or informed. It sounds more likely that you have some culturally engrained stereotypes in your mind.
I clearly stated that she has some responsibility here (she does). What’s troubling is the amount of praise being lumped on someone who clearly does not deserve praise. But your use of cliche terms like “culturally engrained stereotypes” tells me you’re more interested in trying to look smart rather than understand the root of my position or even take it into some consideration. A family has been destroyed here due to selfishness and its being praised by some in these comments.
Go analyze that.
No Chris, A family has not been “destroyed.” You don’t have firsthand knowledge of this family any more than you can speak authoritatively about anyone but yourself. Ending a marriage doesn’t destroy a family any more than staying in one protects a family. My kids were very, very, sad when my marriage ended but they still love me, my wife (their mother) and my now husband who they refer to as their “Bonus Dad.” Our family is close, communicative and happy. Although based on the flood of comments and retorts you’ve provided you seem to have an enormous amount of time to hang out on someone else’s blog? So maybe you should close the laptop and go throw a ball with your kid.
Well, Tom. I posted a reply and answered, now, three comments…two of those being yours. So no, I’m not hanging (or flood of comments) out here all day. I’m seeing a notification come through on my email as I work but whatever…
I am glad the situation worked out for you and your family. To each his own. You can keep telling yourself whatever you want about this situation but what was presented was a front and a lie and it’s dissolved. That’s a fact. Having been through this yourself, I would think you would have more empathy for the situation (especially the wife) and if you really are a therapist, you know darn well that these things do destroy families and don’t work out a lot of time and that the children are the ones who pay for it the most. If you deny that then you’re being intellectually dishonest.
I think you had me confused with “Tyler” in your response as 1) I never represented myself as a therapist (I’m not) and 2) you only responded to me once. However…your “gift” for destructive rhetoric, and sweeping generalizations and indictments is really breathtaking. You have NO IDEA what has been said or apologized for in this marriage nor do you have any right to legislate the empathy of others and how they chose to express it. Why are you reading this blog at all? From what personal experience do you speak? No one in this 300+ comment thread gives a rat’s a** about YOUR position. You are irrelevant and unlikely to generate any response with anything original you have to say about your own life. You’ve been following this since 2012…again, WHY? And for the record, nothing has “ended in disaster.” Your motives are suspect, your comments are inflammatory, and based on what you’ve volunteered so far…your own opinion is irrelevant. Have you personally been touched by this issue, or are you just so angry because you haven’t been touched at all?
Sorry for the confusion. Your confusion. You are obviously the angry one here.
We finally agree! I am angry… that pious little “last word” turds like you impose your harsh valuations and opinions on things of which you know nothing. You don’t get to assign blame or responsibility for other people’s marriages or choices. Based on the “faux intellectual” hand on chin pose in your profile shot I’m guessing you’ve attempted to legislate lots of other people’s lives with little to no information…from the comfort and safety of your Costco chair in your sad home office.
Wow. The hits just keep coming. Costco chair. That was good. I think I got it at Staples but yeah, pretty much the same thing no doubt!
You have obviously imposed your harsh valuations and opinions on me. So I guess we’re more alike than you’d like to admit. Good luck with life, Tom.
Chris you misread my reply. I’m not a therapist, I was making an observation that I was surprised that you as a therapist were so quick to draw conclusions about a family that you have never met in person or seen in your office. That’s all.
“A family has been destroyed here due to selfishness and its being praised by some in these comments. ”
A marriage is ending due to honesty and the realisation that their situation is untenable. The family will continue. They’ll always be family with their kids, and connected through their kids.
The root of your position seems to be that they should endure a life that is tearing them apart emotionally, just for the sake of arbitrary rules and norms. I’m not only surprised you’re a therapist – I’m also appalled.
Josh lied to himself? Hahahaha! That’s hilarious.
The only lying, if that’s what you want to call it, here is from his church leaders that told him to have faith by getting married and that all would be well. He didn’t lie to himself, he believed a false promise that was supposed to bring the greatest happiness to everyone involved.
Are you Mormon, Chris? Josh and Lolly’s past decisions only make sense when understood in that context. Josh wasn’t knowingly doing anything selfish; he was doing exactly what he was indoctrinated to do since birth.
You made headlines not long after I’d come out to myself, family and husband. I thought your stance was harmful to struggling gay Mormons, but there was no doubt you were on your own journey and striving for authenticity. At any rate, I believe good things are in store for you. I found that when I stopped doing mental somersaults, there’s enough energy left to find another level of happiness. As much as it is a challenge to be out here in “the world,” it’s a gift. And suddenly hearing every love song with fresh ears is thrilling! I wish you well.
Sadly, if all of your learning has brought you to a conclusion that the point of life is romantic attachment, I blame Disney more than your church.
Good point.
Disney Princess, thank you for that comic relief! I was feeling tense and crabby from reading some of the comments.
From what Josh and Lolly are saying, the way it looks to me like Lolly has very good reasons for agreeing to divorce, and she’s trying to see it in the best light she possibly can. I don’t see how she could do any better than that.
Dear Josh and Lolly:
I have lived (and continue to live) a variation of your story. Based on the volume of attention you have received, it is obvious that many people have. I am commenting on your post to thank you for your courage and honesty. I also wanted to let you know that some variation of “happily ever after” is more than likely in your future.
At the time I was coming out I could think of nothing more painful. I was in deep denial about my attractions, but interestingly enough, something also broke loose in me after my mother died.
However, my wife and I have known each other our entire conscious life. Our marriage and friendship were the envy of one and all. We were that close. Our kids were happy, healthy, and secure when the “hurricane” hit. And it felt like we were going to be in the middle of that storm for so long we started to second guess our excruciating decision to live my truth. I vividly remember the first night I was leaving our home to sleep somewhere else. I started up the driveway and froze. I saw my beloved wife through the window sitting alone on the couch and I thought “I can’t do this. I can’t.” I ran back into the house in tears. But she looked at me calmly and said “It’s okay, go.” And I knew she was right.
A few years later, I am remarried to a wonderful man. He loves my children and he also loves my former wife. The two of them have a great friendship and a shared connection that uniquely belongs to the two of them from loving me. We are still a family, just a different one than most can understand. I have the dual gifts of love and peace now. I have no shame. I no longer have sleepless hours in the dark staring at the ceiling in terror and despair. I have a happiness I was raised to believe was impossible.
In my case, there are still moments when I think about rewinding the clock or what would have happened if I had simply continued to suffer. I have flashes of “what if?” Not because I have any misgivings about my choices, but because I caused a LOT of pain to my family and innocent people. My only advice to you is to make sure you continue to keep your children as your priority and to listen to them; really listen. Also, recognize there will be moments when the rational you (or Lolly) gives way to some undiscovered pocket of sadness or remorse or anger. Ride it out and continue to be there for each other. I wish nothing but happiness and success for both of you.
Did your ex-wife likewise find a special person? It seems like it would be easier for a man of any orientation to find a new partner than for a middle-aged woman with children to do so, but I hope both Lolly and your wife do, if that is what they want.
Good lord she is not middle aged. She has a very good chance of meeting someone new. Why all the anger
I agree. I’m heartbroken for Lolly because that’s it. It’s going to be MUCH harder for her.
and again, that is a manipulative statement designed to make Josh feel guilty. It doesn’t change the situation and it’s not helpful and possibly not even true. Guilting people into doing what you think they should do never works.
I’m not trying to change their decision or guilt anyone into doing anything. I don’t think anyone should live inauthentically, and if this is what they feel is authentic, then I’m happy for them.
But it’s possible think that way and to also acknowledge the high probability that finding romantic connection is not going to be easy for either of them, but particularly her, and particularly if she decides to try to date active Mormon men (I don’t know that she is). For the record, I don’t necessarily think people need romantic connection to be happy and fulfilled.
Thank you for sharing your honest story with the whole world. Your journey has been inspired since the very beginning. Thank you for embracing honesty well into the territory of terrifying; I KNOW it will make a positive difference in so, so many lives now and in the lives to come. I KNOW the Church is one step closer to major change, because of you both.
Thank you for taking your faith seriously, your covenants seriously, and being ACTIVE in that faith, showing the rest of us what religion is FOR. I know your lives will continue to become more and more beautiful.
I stumbled across this post when one of my friends posted it on facebook. For the most part it is beautiful and I am glad that you are learning to accept and love yourselves for who you are, but there is one thing that has me a little worried – particularly as you are therapists.
“Platonic love is simply not enough, no matter how much we hoped it was. God designed us to need and want romantic attachment.”
“The one thing we have learned in the last five years is that no one should be asked to live a life without romantic attachment. All this talk of “love” is actually talk of the basic human need for attachment. It is inhumane. We need it, or at least we need the hope of being able to find it eventually, in order to be healthy.”
I can believe that those statements are true for you. They may even be true for most people. However. That A in the LGBTQIA? It stands for Asexual and Aromantic (it is possible to only be one of the two, but they often also come together). For those of us who fall under those headings, claiming that *all* people need the hope of finding romantic attachment (even without the sexual component) reads as saying that we are broken. I don’t experience romantic attraction. To *anyone*. This doesn’t make me broken or mean that I can’t live a fulfilling life; it just means that I’m wired a little differently. The most important relationships in my life are always going to be platonic ones and, for me, that’s as it should be.
Isolation is not healthy. Having healthy relationships is important. Just be careful that you don’t fall into the trap of assuming that everyone needs the same type of relationship. Just as not everyone belongs in a heterosexual romantic relationship, not everyone needs a romantic relationship in general.
Yes, asexual and aromantic people exist. Congratu-fucking-lations. Stop trying to subvert the conversation and make it about you when it’s not.
I relate to this comment, and expressing an aspect of the issue that is important to you isn’t subverting the conversation. Many people see a fallacy (at least for them) in the idea that one can’t survive and be healthy without a romantic relationship, or at least the hope of one. Being asexual, and married to a heterosexual man is hard- I have considered getting a divorce so that he could find true happiness with someone else.. but that option is a selfless one- I know I would never find a similarly fulfilling relationship with anyone else. Yes, I feel very broken.
Carmen— you are not broken. No one is broken. That’s a christianist story designed to sell a fake cure to a fake disease by an even more fake physician. Josh thought he had fixed himself. This who,e long Testament is an admission that he did not, because it was a fake cure for an imaginary disease.
You are not broken. You just haven’t learned yet to fix yourself. Please do. Even a complete stranger can care.
Sorry, sexual minorities don’t instantly stop existing because you don’t want to have a conversation about us. #erasure
Hey Josh and Lolly,
First and foremost, thank you. Thank you for your vulnerability, your example of kindness and generosity toward one another, your tenderness and your bravery. My husband and I are also in a mixed orientation marriage of ten years. We were going through an especially trying time with our faith and in the marriage when your blog post came out five years ago. While we’ve long felt that a MOM probably wasn’t the “right” decision, we learned more about how to love one another through your example of goodness and mercy toward one another. I feel like you’ve provided a continuing example of how to allow the marriage to come to its conclusion with that same grace and tenderness you exemplified in that initial posting.
Much love to you, to your family and best of luck in your future endeavours.
To all of the heterosexual couples reading this,
–who recognize their *own* marriage in this description–
I plead to you to not assume this means you should get a divorce, too. I’ve spoken to enough people about marriage that I know this lack of romantic attachment is unfortunately all too common, regardless of sexual orientation. Straight couples go through this same experience, too. It is true that if you are married to someone who doesn’t have romantic attachment to you, that you may never experience that attachment as long as you are faithful. It is part of the painful human experience for millions of married people. I am in no way negating Josh and Lolly’s experience; they are telling the truth and are not mistaken. We have no reason to believe their reasons are not as accurate as they believe they are.
What I’m trying to say is, you are very likely not Josh & Lolly. Please consider that though you feel exactly the same as they have described, the *source* of your painful disconnection from romantic attachment is different. There are many things you can do, and many things you can hope for. Some people definitely are in a situation that will never improve, but many will see a light at the end of the tunnel with effort on both sides. Please consider yourselves unique individuals with a unique situation, and make your decisions dependant on yourself, not a painful recognition of yourself in someone else’s story.
But I do thank Josh and Lolly for their willingness to share their path with us. These decisions aren’t easy, and talking about them publically is even harder. Thank you for your vulnerability; I wish I were ready to be as open as you are.
As a bisexual LDS woman in a mixed-orientation marriage, I am saddened that one of the greatest advocates for LGBT+ members choosing their own path (including temple marriage) basically sold his story under false pretenses. It’s a lie to say that this is anything else – throughout the entire time Josh and Lolly sold their story, they were ADAMANT about staying married, and gave people a lot of crap for even asking this question.
Josh and Lolly: You gave a lot of us false hope, and I hope you own the consequences of that.
Circumstances change, people change. Our spiritual evolution is dynamic – ever unfolding and changing. This journey is not about being perfect and flawless. One of the most powerful things we can do as human beings is to admit when we are wrong, make amends, and move forward. I applaud the Weeds for their humble courage.
Yes, I think a lot of people in mixed-orientation marriages are feeling very betrayed.
I think some are even wondering if this was planned from the beginning.
Wow, that is dark and more revealing about yourself than the Weeds. Give them the benefit of the doubt. There’s no need to feel betrayed if you are rock solid in your own mixed orientation marriage. Let them do what’s best for them, and continue doing what’s best for you.
Much harder to own the consequences of their first post, I’d imagine. How dare you suggest that they can’t be authentic unless they continue to stay married, when being married is causing them anguish.
As someone else in a MOM, I don’t feel like they lied. They changed. People change. Perceptions change. Faith changes. Needs change. None of us go to the altar with the intention of divorce but half of us end up there anyway because as much as we try to deny it, we all change over the course of our lifetimes. I know we entered our MOM under different circumstances than the ones under which we currently stay. Every story will be different. Their story doesn’t have to be your story.
I’m not homosexual. I’m not heterosexual. I’m a man.
Bet you ten bucks you’re actually a heterosexual man because only heterosexual men would say something this fucking stupid.
@Gem Only a liberal jackass with way too many pheromones running through then would say something so hypocritically stupid while completely discriminating against someone who appears to be asexual.
I’m not sure if you know of others who have had to make this same decision, but if you’d like, I can connect you with friends who find themselves in similar situations if you think that kind of support would be helpful.
Thank you, Josh and Lolly for this beautiful courageous post! May your homestead flourish, and may you have the love your hearts can hold.
Colton – I love your answer to this question – it closely mirrors my beliefs.
Thank you for your honesty and also apology—life’s journey takes all of us to places we never planned to see. Truth of self is critical to happiness and peace. The risk LGBT+ Mormons must take to feel this is to trust God and believe you were made this way by Him and are willing to risk your soul on that belief. It is a courageous act of faith in self and God. The leap is to be born on angel’s wings and to understand the true variety and uniqueness of God’s plan for his children. There are many days of being tossed on the sea of doubt and despair but his voice can calm your waters, “be still and know that I am God”—finally wholeness. He alone can speak peace to your soul and you know why you cannot trust in the arm of flesh, be it prophet or sinner. I have come to know an abundant and joyful life inspite of the religion of my birth. Well intentioned men have caused much suffering and harm due to the hardness of their hearts and failure to love and acceptance of all of God’s diversity. Take the good of you lives and guard it dearly—you have partaken of the tree of knowledge and once knowing must live the truth of your lives—this is the congruence that brings joy and peace. Enjoy the road less travel! Our personal truths are not always true for others—something it has taken my a lifetime to learn and accept. Welcome to reality for now your eyes have been opened!
Drew Graham — No, gay is not an identity. It’s a sexual orientation that some are born with. I was born heterosexual. While I could live with someone of the same sex and pretend I was gay, I wouldn’t have changed my orientation. If Josh couldn’t have changed, he would be 100% straight today. He gave it his best shot and Lolly was there beside him to love and support him. If you’re struggling with same-sex attraction and are feeling desperate, get help. Don’t take it out on Josh and Lolly. They deserve better. God bless!
Change is possible. That’s the entire point of the Gospel. Why are some challenges “too hard” for the Atonement to help?
As for my own situation… been there, done that. There’s a reason why I know this is possible.
Drew, I bet you weren’t able to change your sexual orientation, though–which is rooted in biology, not thoughts or feelings.
Assuming that you’re a heterosexual man, you can’t even remotely compare your “challenge” with Josh’s–unless you’ve been successfully able to abstain from all intimate contact with women so far and will remain celibate for the rest of your life. Or, barring that, your one remaining option is to form a relationship with a man to whom you could never be romantically attracted. That is the level of sacrifice you’re expecting Josh to make. To say it’s similar to any challenge you’re going through is laughable at best.
PS: You can’t change your sexual orientation. In case reading comprehension is not your strong suit, Josh already tried everything imaginable in his attempt to become straight, including *marrying a woman for fifteen years*. Good lord, if that amount of effort can’t make it happen, nothing can.
Of course I was able to, that’s exactly what I’m saying. “Sexual orientation” isn’t biological at all, it’s based entirely on thoughts, feelings, behavior and self-identification, ALL of which can be changed, and are changed in many ways every day.
As for assuming, best not to.
Josh tried everything… except for refusing to acknowledge himself as a “gay” man. How in the world could someone overcome something if they continually insist and affirm that it’s who they are? Labeling something is the best way to never change what it is. It’s the simplest psychological (and the most profound spiritual) principle. Since it apparently needs to be stated, going through the motions will NEVER be enough. It never has been.
TL;DR. The fraud comes out. I can’t believe it but at the same time I can.
“Gay” is not an identity. Gay is a pattern of thoughts and behavior, and ABSOLUTELY CAN BE CHANGED. Please stop confusing the entire world with your insane and apparently arbitrary worldviews.
Mean? Honest. Let’s see if this even gets past the moderators.
Oh, it got past the moderators. Which is why this will too.
Fuck you, Drew. Fuck you and your bigotry.
wow GEM, you are one hateful person.
Drew where is your energy on this topic coming from?
Let them enjoy the gift of personal revelation and live their life as they see fit. I’m sure their story will help hundreds of gay youth to see that they have options and that God and most people will love and accept them whatever they choose.
I don’t see their conclusions as universally true for everyone, but it sure appears to be true for them. I can’t fault Lolly or Josh for doing their best. That’s what everyone is doing right? Their best. That’s all I can do and that’s all you can do. Guess what, it’s enough!
My energy is coming from the fact that I know this is something that can and should and must be overcome. Personal revelation, at least divine revelation, will not lead you to the philosophies of men mingled with scripture. Gay youth SHOULD know they have options — and one of those options is to choose who they want to be, not be labeled and identified as one misguided set of thought and behavioral patterns. It’s the simplest psychological principal and the most profound doctrinal truth that people can change their thoughts and desires.
Turns out the comments aren’t being moderated, which is surprising. GEX, it only took you two sentences of your actual comment to jump right to the application to a complete stranger the ubiquitous and usually misapplied “bigot” label — impressive by any standards. By the way, switch the G and the E in your acronym and you’re looking at me. *thumbs up*
Not only can people’s orientation not be changed (and programs that claim to have succeeded have often just traumatised a gay person into an aversion to sex; it never makes them straight), but also there is no need to try to fix something that isn’t broken. Stop driving people to suicide. Homosexuality is just another way to be human.
Orientation CAN change, and people DO go from gay to straight. Why are people willing to immediately believe someone can go from straight to gay, even after decades of marriage and children, and celebrate that they’re “finally being who they really are,” but when the opposite happens, it’s immediately dismissed as impossible? It’s the worst kind of double standard.
I’m not driving anyone to anything, except the hope and help of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. The ideas you’re presenting are hopeless and damning, and could just as easily lead a person to contemplate ending their own life.
Homosexuality is another way to be human, like any other thought or behavioral pattern, but people don’t have to be if they don’t want to be. Don’t you dare presume to tell someone else they can’t be who they want to be.
Drew, young gay people kill themselves becuase of attitudes like yours. There is nothing wrong with them. There never was. What is wrong is the so called religious leaders who have decided that they are always right and that they have nothing to learn from gay people.
Josh is saying quite clearly here: 1) I’m gay. I’ve always been gay. 2) I tried doing what the church told me. It didn’t work. 3) I tried praying to god. It didn’t work. Sometimes god answers, and hat answer is no. 4) I tried fixing other people, but I couldn’t even fix myself. It didn’t work. 5) I tried getting married and having lots and lots of heterosex. IT DIDNT WORK NO MATTER HOW MUCH I DID IT.
At some point, someone with a brain and a heart begins to understand that everything he thought was true was a lie, that there was nothing in fact, logic, or experience that would e er make it true, josh realized it.
When will you?
Young homosexuals kill themselves due to nihilism.
Ultimately young “gay” people (and anyone else) don’t kill themselves for any other reason than that they killed themselves. You can’t assign blame for one person’s actions to someone else, especially total strangers, however good it feels to pass so much responsibility elsewhere. There is plenty to learn from gay people, just like from everyone else. That’s never been in question. But when gay people start thinking they can teach God a thing or two… then we have a problem. Apparently Josh Weed (and you) know better than the Almighty.
Just because it didn’t work for Josh or for you doesn’t mean it doesn’t or can’t work. I have seen it.
I finally realized everything I thought was true based on societal stereotypes and bullying and backwards thinking was a lie, I took control of my life, and I changed completely and forever.
I’m sorry you’re hurt and angry, Ben. I hope you find some peace.
Drew, there are such people callled bisexuals. They are a know phenomenon. People can go back and forth, no doubt, but that doesn’t mean it is voluntary. And if, like josh, they convince themselves of what they know isn’t true, they can even manage to live a lie for many decades.
I’m a gay man. I’ve always been a gay man. I’ve known about myself since I was three. I didn’t know what it was or hat it meant, but I KNEW. I had sex with a woman a gofer Times in my youth. I was curious. It was fun. But it never, ever made me think I was even remotely bisexual.
Maybe you should start listening to gay people, instead of your bishop. You might learn something, instead of passing judgment on people you don’t know, know nothing about, and who just wish to live their lives in the best way they can.
Interesting thing about bisexuals… have you noticed how their number seems to have dropped significantly in recent years? I’m sorry to hear you’ve been applying adult sexual attributes to yourself when you were a toddler with barely any understanding of the concept of gender at all (though kids do and feel funny things all the time — I have my doubts you were reaching such results at that age anyway… it’s a popular line to use).
I have listened to gay people. I have more firsthand experience than you know. And for the record, I’m no proponent of church leadership as ultimate spiritual authority — not the first conclusion you’ve jumped to.
Nothing new to your comment, but still worth a brief response.
*boggle* Drew, honey, are you okay? You sound tired.
Just fine, thanks for asking… Sure, a little tired, but that’s life, right?
You might want to get that boggle looked at, by the way. Maybe *you’re* not okay.
Drew is right
“ABSOLUTELY CAN BE CHANGED.”
The lady doth protest too much, methinks. — Queen Gertrude
Oh of course… believing strongly in something always automatically means the person secretly does the exact opposite.
*eyeroll* Shakespeare would scoff.
Josh & Lolly,
Thank you for letting us all learn from your long journey that’s filled with more courage & love than I can comprehend. I’m a stranger but I’m so proud of both of you & your children. I’m confident the good you have done / will do is far greater than the harmful things that have been passed on through you due to innocent mis-guidance from your various church leaders. In fact, the breadth of experience & learning that you’ve gained has positioned you both to be a much greater force for truth, reason, & love than otherwise might have been. As much as a stranger through a comment can, I give you my love & support.
Like you, I was raised to be homophobic inside the LDS church. Also, like you, I realized that the church is full of many good things along with many bad things. My personal joy & freedom came when I was led to understand that all of the good within the church can be found & fully enjoyed outside of the church. God does not live in a tiny box we call church- He is universal & so is His love & ALL His blessings. To say that someone can only have certain blessings or approvals from God if they go through their particular brand of religion is to act as a second gatekeeper (of which even the Book of Mormon says there is only One). In other words, God is not the Church & the Church is not God. Rather God is God & the church is the church.
Thank you for your post, Josh. I could relate to a lot of what you wrote. God bless.
Glad to hear that both of you are committed to living an authentic life. Unlike many people on here, I don’t think MOMs are inherently bad. I was in one for 5 years and while it wasn’t what I wanted in life, it was a fantastic five years. My ex-wife and I are still dear friends even though each of us are now in committed relationships with people we are more compatible with. Your journey is valuable whether it involves an MOM or an SSM.
While I don’t think that you are a fraud, as many people have accused you of being, I do think it will take more than just a blog post to correct the image of the Golden Child of homophobic religious beliefs that you have created. As you’ve pointed out, your story has been weaponized and has caused a lot of harm. While it didn’t inform my decision to get married, there was the hope that marrying my female best friend would be sufficient for my needs. When it wasn’t, it was earth-shattering. In order to “repent” for the false hope you’ve given many parents of gay children, you need to make an about face and stop touting your MOM and instead share a message of caution for those considering them.
All that said, I love you loads. I’m keeping my real name out of this, but you have been a role model to me since even before you reached internet stardom in your coming-out post. I know you are doing the best you can and I know you will continue to make the best decisions available to you and your family.
Josh and Lolly, thank you for sharing your truth. Thank for your your candor and strengthen. Thank you for being so brave. This blog post will save countless lives and it will open hearts and minds. You’re wonderful people. I wish you all the best, now and in the future!
Thank you! As a gay child or God I needed to hear this.
Best of luck to you, your wife, and kids. Keep focusing on the things that are real and tangible. We all have a journey and keeping yours based in reality and truth will help you along the way.
Thank you both for sharing! I truly needed this and enjoyed hearing you both express yourselves. I read your coming out post and thought it was cool that you both were able to be married. But I knew for myself that I could not marry a man and have a family. I knew that I needed to be true to who I am. I have had the same feeling and inspiration from my Heavenly Father about being true to myself. I’m currently in a same sex relationship and have been the happiest I can say I have ever been. Thank you for your courage and love for yourself, your family, friends and all of us! 🙂
Thank you for being brave enough to share your story, and frankly being willing to share very detailed person information. I’ve always wondered how sex works in a mixed orientation marriage, and your post sheds more light on that and how sex, is not fully the issue in this type of marriage. Wishing your family the best, and that your ideal arrangement will work out with future partnerships.
My story is very similar, in almost every aspect. Except I was/am a women in a house full of boys. 🙂 All the emotions expressed my husband and I went through. I cried reading it, understanding completely. As a former member of the church I still struggle with how you can continue to support and follow the teachings of a church that are against your creation. It doesn’t make sense. I couldn’t continue practicing the LDS propaganda and was eventually asked if I was actively sexual with another women. When my reply was yes, I was asked to come in and be judged then excommunicated. How can you live your truth in a religion that ultimately condemns you to hell? I don’t believe it can be true and the lds community in our town wanted nothing to do with our family once we came out. They were the most hateful, cruel, unloving group of people. They blamed me for destroying an eternal family…it was awful. Thank you for your beautiful story, for the courage to share it…I wish you the best living it…that is another journey!
I’m really proud of y’all. I can see the love that you have towards each other, Gosh I don’t quite know how to put what I want to say. I know that God loves you both dearly. I know he wishes for your happiness. I am reading this because my best friend is gay , we served together on our missions, and I feel like I can understand a bit more what he feels. I love him so much, and I feel I can empathize with him more now. Thank you.
I cannot accurately express how touching this post was. I have never met you, but I love you so much. Your sincerity and honesty are truly inspiring.
Thank you for sharing your story. As a straight, lds woman, this is a very difficult thing to understand. I appreciate you stepping out of your comfort zone to shed some much needed light on this topic. I feel I am wording this poorly…I still, probably, have my narrow view, but I appreciate the insights you have shared. I wish you both eternal happiness!
Thank you for sharing your story. As a straight, lds woman, this is a very difficult thing to understand. I appreciate you stepping out of your comfort zone to shed some much needed light on this topic. I feel I am wording this poorly…I still, probably, have my narrow view, but I appreciate the insights you have shared. I wish you both eternal happiness!
P.S. just as you learned these things for yourselves, line upon line, the rest of us, gay or straight, have to do the same. Just as you saw things differently in each of your stages, the rest of us will go through stages, too. Be patient.
Thank you so much for this. I recently got out of a relationship with my best friend, who is gay. We had the best friendship, amazing communication, and so much else going for us, but we had this huge block that kept causing us trouble. Ultimately, he didn’t feel safe when we were together, and I didn’t feel loved or cared for by him. Breaking up was hard, but I realized how much it hurt to have only been wanted for my mind and not for ALL of me. Reading this story makes me so grateful we didn’t continue towards marriage, since it would have been so painful for both of us.
On the other hand, it gets really old being valued only for your body. I was married to a heterosexual man for 20 years. Had four kids. Then he fell in love with another woman whose body he liked better. Of course the excitement of lust wears off and it’s not so great for him anymore. I remarried, a gay man this time, and while he doesn’t lust after my body, he loves ME, mind, personality, the things that matter to me. We’ve been married almost 20 years. Maybe he’ll fall in love with another man. Who knows. Straight or gay. Being left for a man or a woman. It all hurts. I guess I don’t really buy that either Josh or Lolly is being noble. The reason sin is sin is because it hurts people, very often innocent people like their children. If sex is the most important thing in your life, I don’t recommend getting married. Eventually it gets restrictive.
They weren’t talking about just being loved for your body – people keep missing that that is not at all what they are saying. They are talking about their whole beings. People keep reducing gay relationships to sex because then they can claim they are wrong and all sorts and geez the brainwashing that Mormonism does from birth that results in lame arguments against being gay!!
and again, trying to guilt people into staying married because of the children is manipulative and doesn’t work.
Josh and Lolly,
Thank you so much for all your open and honest posts over the years. I have learned so much through you–mostly to not judge and to just love. I appreciate your persistent faith in the face of difficult, and complex situations. Faith that many seem to give up on when they face hard things because sometimes it’s just easier. I hope that when I am confronted with difficult and complex situations that I can take some of what I’ve learned from you and apply that love, openness, and caring to others.
I hope that I can keep learning, and growing and changing like you.
I hope you happiness and joy on your homestead.
I hope you keep posting so I that I can keep learning, however selfish that is of me.
One thing I know if that you are of infinite worth and God loves you for who you are. He loves us all for who we are.
Thank you.
I have really appreciated following your blog. Like you’ve said everyone knows someone whose LGBTQIA. Our family is no exception. Some of us are LDS and some of us are not. I feel like I’ve always been on a journey of discovery regarding Heavenly Father’s plan regarding the “issue.” I have found no concrete answers along the spectrum of divided opinions. In my search I’ve aligned myself with groups from opposing ends of the spectrum. I lost favor with loved ones in the process, but was also given the opportunity to share the message that belittling others isn’t going to prove to anyone that your opinion is “correct.” I have found enlightenment among un-baised people who are simply trying to remind people of God’s commandment to love one another. Your original blog gave me hope about my own heterosexual LDS marriage. When I was a young adult I dated a lot. I was always looking to connect emotionally with someone I felt that “spark” with. I “sparked” with quite a few people, but I couldn’t get any other aspects of those relationships to click into place. After a failed engagement (that ended 2 weeks before the wedding day) I started thinking that maybe I needed to find someone where all those other aspects “clicked” first. Then I met my spouse. This is NOT the answer for everyone. I am sure I traded the “spark” for emotional security, but I wouldn’t have it any other way. I genuinely wish you and your family happiness in your new future, and hope to read more blogs.
I have to admit, yours is a story I purposefully have not followed. When I heard about you in 2012, and read your initial post, and saw you on those shows, I was so angry, mostly because of what it was doing to the relationship I was in – a male, same-sex relationship with a man who was born and raised in the LDS church. We almost ended our relationship. I remember encouraging him to go find a woman, get married, and have children, if that’s what would make him happy. We both knew it wouldn’t, because that would be a life of lies, and pain – as you have so openly discussed here.
It’s been a difficult journey for us both – for me, as I was raised without a religion, yet live in a highly-LDS population. I was often excluded from any activity or group, because I wasn’t Mormon. When I came out in 2011, I was 21. My siblings knew and seemed fine, and my parents knew, though they both wished it weren’t so – after all, gay people kill themselves or are killed by others for being gay. I became a target, in their eyes.
When I first began dating my now-husband, it took us months to look past the excitement of new love, experiencing a new body, new sensations, to realize there was something much deeper there – a spiritual, deep connection that went past physical attraction and even past friendship. It was (I’ll use the term you have above) romantic love. And it was terrifying for me, in my first same-sex relationship, and for him, experiencing that which he had denied himself for years.
But we committed. His parents were kind, but guarded. I was the same. Some of his other relatives wouldn’t look at me or speak to me at family gatherings, and still don’t. My mere existence is the cause for discomfort and pain. I don’t know if I’ll ever be okay with that. It hurts. However, it’s made better by the acknowledgment and love of many other relatives that hug me, ask about me when I can’t make family functions, and support our happiness, even if they personally don’t like it.
We married in 2016. It was an incredibly difficult time, and a few days before the wedding, we were feeling like we weren’t ready, but it was too late. We loved each other, and worked well together, and it seemed like the problems we experienced were coming from outside factors. We were married in an Christian church, which was filled with people – many standing, as there wasn’t room to sit.
His parents came, along with a few other relatives. They sat in the back, grouping together for support. The look on his mother’s face as we exited the church is indescribable. She is a strong woman, who believes fully in the LDS Church and its teachings, and seeing her son, surrounded by love from a diverse community, committing to spend his life with the person he loved broke her heart – because the God she believes in tells her that is wrong. Wrong because he committed to a life with me. A man. It broke my heart. I wanted to apologize for causing her pain, but I also struggled with knowing her pain came from what I believed to be a harmful and damaging belief. We hugged, and all I could say was, “thank you,” over and over again.
It creates intense feelings of confusion on my part. I’ve struggled with self-hate and homophobia, and part of that has always come with the question of, “Only women should love men.” Therefore, I should be a woman. Shouldn’t I? That confusion is still with me to this day.
That confusion exists intimately as well. From his upbringing, sex exists for procreation. Sex between two men can never result in procreation, therefore it’s not right. It’s a struggle, knowing that if we start to become intimate, he can’t fully be with me. In turn, there’s part of me that knows he wants to say no, so it feels non-consensual. It’s such a painful situation.
All of this is to say that, I’m sorry for the pain you are going through, and can relate. I am deeply appreciative of your bravery in making this decision. I hope you receive more support and love than hurtful comments. As you pointed out, everyone deserves love, and you all are no exception. You have endured much, and there are people like me who don’t know you personally, but feel connected to you. I hope healing happens quickly, and you and Lolly discover the love you both deserve and desire. It still may not be easy, but having a romantic, loving partner that loves you like you love them provides an incredible strength.
May healing continue for you as well Chris. Thanks for sharing your comment.
I don’t know you, but I love you. I’m praying for an undeniable experience of grace and hope. I have so much respect for your humility am obvious compassion.
Loving some one all your life and finding them changing sure does hurts like hell. My husband was once loving and caring but to a point he stopped and totally forsake me, he wasn’t having time for me, all he was having time for was his work and cell phone, i was so devastated that i didn’t know what to do. I did love him so much, even when he was still not caring i couldn’t leave cause i still loved him, i sought for help from every where i could to have my husband back, i luckily found help from a man who was helping people out on relationship and marriage issues. I went on and contacted him, i explained what i was going through in my marriage, then he assured me that he would help me, i did all that he instructed me to do and then he told me that my husband would return to me after some days, i waited patiently and after some days passed my husband came home one evening and started apologizing to me to forgive him for how he had been treating me, i was so surprised beyond words that i can’t thank this man enough.
If you need his assistance you can contact him on: SUPREMESPELLS @OUTLOOK .COM
Wow Josh and Lolly, what a compelling narrative! There are striking parallels between your story and my own: I’m a gay man, married a woman, and became a therapist. The drive to figure out and heal myself has informed—if not determined—most of my major life decisions. Full disclosure, though: My marriage ended in spectacular and bitter failure, from which my dear ex wife and I will likely be recovering for the rest of our lives.
I’ve marveled twice: at your first “Club Unicorn” post describing your grand experiment, and most recently at this post detailing your grand realization. Thank you for these intimate family portraits. You’ve allowed others to experience and understand something to which they may never have had access otherwise, and that understanding has made the world a better and more thoughtful place.
I’m troubled, though, by some of the fundamental assertions undergirding each of your family portraits. If I understand correctly, during the time described by portrait “A” (the “Club Unicorn” post) you thought of same-sex attraction as ugly (or at least “aberrant”), and your life decisions were governed by that judgment. If I think of something as ugly or undesirable, my natural reaction is to reject it and fight against it. And you did so—according to your most recent post—to the extent that you denied reality.
By the time you painted portrait “B,” comprised of this most recent post, you had come to the opposite realization—that not only was your sexual orientation not ugly, but that it was beautiful. When I judge something as beautiful, my natural reaction is to accept it and embrace it, along with all it entails.
Between those two judgments exists one condition: despair. I have seen it countless times in more than 15 years as a suicide/crisis worker in various Emergency Rooms. The first judgment—that same-sex attraction is “ugly”—undergirds the cultural machinery whereby the heteronormative “righteous” batter same-sex attracted individuals into lives of oppression and denial. The second judgment—that same-sex attraction is “beautiful”—undergirds the assumptions of an equally vocal counterculture that has only recently become mainstream. The message that one must choose one or the other, along with all that either choice implies, is the culture war that is literally claiming the lives of those caught in the middle. And it should come as no surprise that when war rages, human beings feel compelled to seek safety by taking sides. This in turn causes them (including many in Church leadership) to exercise the instruments of battle, including ignorance, prejudice, and contradiction, as your latest post so clearly and painfully illustrates.
What is the path forward? It involves divorcing ourselves from the judgments we make about same-sex attraction. Could it be that it is neither good nor bad, neither ugly nor beautiful? Could it simply be something that happens in a fallen world—that it just is? It occurs to me that when I accept something without judgment, new opportunities arise. When something is neither ugly nor beautiful, I am free to simply accept its reality, chart my own course, and create with it whatever beauty and meaning I can. Certainly I still have to navigate the world in context of the war that continues to rage; I can’t pretend it doesn’t exist. But when I let go of the judgments that perpetuate the war, my life becomes my own and I am no longer beholden to either side. Nor do I feel the despair that comes from being placed continually in the middle of someone else’s war and being perpetually injured by the weapons each side uses against the other. It is a truly freeing experience.
As therapists, we learn that a relationship is only as healthy as its boundaries. Through your combined powers of narrative, you have created relationships with thousands of people. But when you take responsibility for things you didn’t cause, you blur those boundaries and can even damage those relationships.
Case in point: the father who pulled up your story on the computer and then physically assaulted a child of God, beating him as he had often done during his childhood, saying “if this guy could avoid being a faggot, so could you!” Words fail me when I hear stories like this, and not just because my own father said similar things. This father wasn’t just cruel and past feeling; had he been so, he could have simply said, “I hate you!” Instead, he used your story to communicate something far worse—that God hated his son. Can you see the damage in taking even partial responsibility for this malignant evil? In doing so you apologize not only to the son but for his father. Your story was merely the nearest weapon available. Had he not had it, he would have found another. No. Let the man answer for his own crime.
Nor can you doubt, retract, or apologize for any point earlier in an authentic narrative—especially when that point was one of an infinite number of others required to get you to where you have now arrived. You might be grateful your story took you somewhere other than where you thought it would when you started. But you can’t get to point “B” without passing through point “A.” To argue otherwise would be to undermine the authenticity of your whole narrative, to say nothing of being disingenuous to those you’ve invited on your journey.
Finally, let me respond to a topic about which your latest post says a great deal: fairness. As humans, our need for fairness seems as innate as it is inexhaustible. And it would stand to reason that if someone is capable of romantic attachment within the confines of an organized belief system and someone else is not, then that system is not “fair” to the one thus deprived. But for the life of me I can’t find any statement or assurance that the whole system would be “fair” to everyone in general or anyone in particular. In fact, I think the opposite is true: according to LDS doctrine, the divine plan necessitated that mortality would consist of a fallen sphere with its complement of weaknesses, errors, shortcomings, injustices, and other imperfections.
I suppose if Jesus had been focused on the injustice of the mortal state He wouldn’t have been able to complete the atonement, which answered the most complete injustice ever perpetrated with a sinless life and selfless sacrifice.
Years ago I was able to set all that aside in favor of the justice I sought for myself. The logic was compelling, mirroring that which you articulated in your most recent post: If others were deserving of romantic attachment, then so was I. I altered my trajectory to one that included the romantic attachment I had come to believe I deserved. My marriage ended and I was excommunicated. But I achieved the object of my desire: romantic attachment—along with everything that comes with it—so compelling that I had a dawn of recognition: “so this is what it’s supposed to be like!”
Now I find myself walking back toward rebaptism and Church membership. Why? The whole story is beyond my scope here; suffice it to say that having experienced both paths, I can plainly discern which to me is superior. Whereas the focus on personal justice was by and about me, my lifetime in the Church required extraordinary sacrifice and dedication. I liked who I was becoming by following that path more than who I have become since leaving it.
Is it possible I just couldn’t allow myself to find happiness in a same-sex relationship because of internalized homophobia? Sure, I’ll admit that’s possible. But I long ago divested myself from any judgment regarding my same-sex attraction. Since it to me is neither ugly nor beautiful, it can’t inform my self-worth. It’s just there, part of the reality of my existence. It’s entirely unfair, but if it hadn’t been this injustice I’d been allotted to deal with, it would have been some other kind. That’s life.
That’s not to say that the isolation ever goes away, or that it can’t be extraordinarily debilitating, even unto death. It can be. I don’t pretend to know how to manage the hopelessness or despair that can set in when contemplating a life devoid of the romantic attraction that would seem to be (or at least the hope of which would be) the human birthright.
What I do know is that humans are adept at adopting a deficit model of the universe. When we want something unattainable we can become so focused on that perceived injustice that it eclipses our view of everything else. “If only” becomes our worldview, and our sights are set so firmly on the unattainable that it merges with myth: “If only I could do or have _____ my life would be complete.” It is one of the ironies of human folly that once we attain that object of desire so sought, the subsequent deflation that occurs when we realize that we are still mortal and fraught with problems can lead to despair and suicide.
I hear you, Josh, saying that your suicidal thoughts aren’t about depression. But given what you’ve revealed about your family history of suicide, perhaps it isn’t solely about same-sex attraction either. I surmise that most deaths by suicide in your family didn’t involve same-sex attraction, but there still is likely a genetic factor to suicide. So other factors may be at play here.
I’m neither qualified nor inclined to judge you or anyone else facing this issue or any other. My only intent has been to contribute to the dialog insofar as I am able. Blessings to you, Josh and Lolly. Your efforts and authenticity have made the world a better and more thoughtful place. God speed on your journey!
Huh?
What kind of “therapist” refers to being gay as “having same-sex attraction,” using the bigoted Mormon phrase deliberately concocted to imply sickness?
Ty Mansfield for sure. He’s still in a mixed orientation marriage and I’m watching out for the rationalizations he will come out with in order to nullify what Josh and Lolly have said. His wife has already posted something on her FB page about how marriage isn’t really about romantic love. Sigh. Mansfield is a therapist too but somehow even more terrifying than Josh being one. Check him out on youtube – he has theories about why men are gay akin to disproved theories from years ago. And he promotes “Journey into Manhood” retreats which is basically a retreat for gay men to hold each other ‘healthily’ and then go back to their wives. So watch out for all that Ty will have to offer during this season – it is going to be disturbing.
Your comment provides a powerful illustration of the whole gist of my reply to Josh and Lolly—that it is almost impossible for us as humans to approach the issue of sexual orientation objectively and without a whole host of assumptions and prejudices.
But that was nonetheless my point—that it is the war between the two sides that is claiming lives, not the existence of one side or the other. Neither side (in general) has the humility and compassion to say, “I don’t pretend to understand your situation or the pain it causes, so I’m going to refrain from telling you what to do. Instead, I’m going to try to listen and support you in doing your best, whatever you understand that to be.”
Why can’t we do that? Because we’re too busy judging the issue according to the lens of our own experience and understanding. We say that it’s ugly or beautiful, good or bad. And the one actually drives the other. Those who are gay/same-sex attracted (like myself) grow so weary of being told they’re wicked or defective, that when they are finally ready to accept themselves, they fully reject such judgments and they adopt the exact opposite judgment: that same-sex attraction/being gay is healthy and beautiful.
I’m saying it’s neither; it just is. And that realization is the place at which we need to finally arrive to disengage from the culture war and support individuals in whatever path they articulate for themselves. When these sons and daughters of God come to the Emergency Room experiencing suicidal thoughts, those thoughts are often driven by both sides clamoring that they have to pick one side or the other, along with all that implies: “If I deny being gay, I have to continue to live in isolation. If I accept it, I have to choose a gay relationship and risk distancing myself from my family or the Church.” It is being caught between those two extremes that creates suicidal thoughts.
Let’s look at how this has played out in Josh and Lolly’s narrative. Their first “unicorn” post had both text and subtext. As I read it, the text said, “Hey, we have discovered a way to navigate this issue that seems legitimate to us.” The subtext (implied by the title of the post) was, “Hey, we’re doing our own thing. We’re not saying this is the answer for others, but it seems to be working for us.” This latest post proclaims only, “Since that experiment didn’t work for us, it can’t work for anybody.” There is no subtext that allows for any other construction other than the one they’re now proposing. If you doubt that, try to load the original “unicorn” post. I hope it’s only a temporary technical glitch, but it appears to have been removed. The message: We didn’t have the answer before, but we do now. What Josh and Lolly apparently fail to realize is that their most recent post will be used, once again, to increase pressure on LGBT persons–just this time from the other side. Thus the war will continue to rage.
What Josh and Lolly might also fail to reckon with is that there is so much variation in how people conceptualize their lives and relationships that we might not even be asking the right questions. As indicated by the host of different responses on this very thread, for some people, romantic attraction is critically important and necessary for a fulfilling life. For others it is much less so, for many different reasons. The development of human sexuality is highly complex and highly individual, influenced by a vast number of factors. So while Josh and Lolly may have discovered they were in the first group, to therefore assume that all others are as well may be an incorrect and damaging assumption.
It seems that when exploring this topic, the tendency of both sides is to project prescriptions onto others from the highly personalized understanding of human sexuality at which we ourselves have arrived. As long as this is the case, LGBTQIA individuals will continue to be caught in the middle, and that war will drive them to the Emergency Room in search of at least one person who can affirm their worth independent of all the judgments and pressures from both sides that cause them to wonder whether life is worth living. To answer your question most directly: I hope that “kind of therapist” is me.
Thank you — thank you — thank you! Striving to have a heart a peace and helping others to do the same is the key to life, at least so it seems to me. I so appreciate your considered and thoughtful reply.
There aren’t actually ‘two sides.’
Your comment when boiled down seems to be saying, ‘Being in a gay relationship is wrong but I’m going to pretend that it isn’t wrong, just neutral” How neutral would it be if one of your clients wanted to be in a gay relationship? Doubt you would validate that. So be honest about the kind of therapist you want to be – the one that hopes his clients abstain from gay relationships.
Well said, Russ. On both your posts. I couldn’t have put it better.
Russ, the issue isn’t gay or straight. We agree there. The issue is self hatred. As a therapist, you should know this.
The issue then becomes, who has taught that child to hate himself? Who continues to preach that self hatred? Who continues to call gay people a threat to everything good and hold, a threat to marriage, family, children, faith, freedom, morality, and heterosexuality? who has declared gay people to be enemies of god! Enemies of civilization itself? Who has declared that the families of gay people are counterfeit, that our lives and relationships are devoid of meaning and contrary to god’s plan?
There really aren’t two sides to this, with uncertain gay people caught in the middle. Your dichotomy is quite false, and always has been.
I echo Ben. There isn’t 2 sides. What is interesting is you are a member of the church who had racial issues too. Imagine a church telling someone black that there was something wrong with them because of the color of their skin. That would not be 2 sides and the shame those kids felt would only be on the side of the church.
“But that was nonetheless my point—that it is the war between the two sides that is claiming lives, not the existence of one side or the other.”
If you really believe that, I feel very sad for you. The struggle between religiously-fueled homophobia and LGBTQIA people is not a matter of two neutral “sides” in disagreement with each other.
Your comments remind me of Donald Trump saying that there were good people on both sides of the racist protests in Charlotte. You are so steeped in homophobia that you can’t even see it inside yourself. Look, on one level I get it. I experienced religious trauma growing up too. Thankfully I was able to work through it and build an amazing life outside of Mormonism. Of course go on back in if that’s what you want, but you will never convince me this is anything other than Stockholm Syndrome.
–A Gay Male Therapist
No, it is definitely solely the side saying that being gay is disgusting and encourages people to live in denial that makes gay people kill themselves. That thought would make people kill themselves even if no one was telling them it was okay to be gay. Whereas people being told that the love they are born to feel is a beautiful thing are not harmed by being told this at all.
Thanks for this–I agree that we’re only “free” in a way when we stop making “good” and “bad” judgments about our circumstances and just accept them.
I think the choice they’re making is totally valid and fine, but it does disturb me that both Josh and Lolly seem to feel that life is only meaningful if it includes romantic connection. By doing so they’re not only marginalizing a whole host of people who’s circumstances make it impossible to have that connection, but they’re setting themselves up for future heartbreak and pain.
I sincerely wish them well on their journeys, but I don’t think this is the panacea they’re hoping for.
Thank you for sharing your insights. You said that “when I let go of the judgments that perpetuate the war, my life becomes my own and I am no longer beholden to either side.” Rings very true for me. It would be wonderful if more of us could do that very thing and stop judging. Leave it to Him. Thanks again.
Thank you for sharing Russ…very valuable and thoughtful insights.
I really appreciate your thoughtful response. I love seeing the idea of homosexuality as being neutral… to me that removes the need to take sides and allows for radical acceptance of everyone’s journey.
My heart is both broken and happy for you both. I have followed you since the “coming out post” and I can say that you are amazing human beings. I hope with all my heart that you find the love you both deserve. I am excited to continue to follow your story! ❤️
And yes you need to get on the Ellen show!!
Hi, I don’t like getting involved in heated discussions (and I won’t reply if someone replies to this), but I wanted to say thank you for this post. We have a son who is transgender, and while I absolutely support the leaders of the church, you finally explained what is really missing for him. I could not ever be married to my husband if I thought he wasn’t really romantically and physically attracted to me. I hope that this issue is like when black men were finally granted the opportunity to hold the priesthood. The church evolves, it always has. I can sustain our leaders and love my family and hope (and work) for more understanding in the future. Thank you.
So, you can see now that a gay person trying to stay in a straight marriage is unhealthy, but you can’t see that a gay person trying to stay in a straight church (which actively discriminates against him and even – incomprehensibly – his innocent children) is unhealthy?
Between five years ago and today, you’ve managed to hit almost every trigger I have. Talk about imagining the taste of cold metal!
I sincerely hope the best for the both of you and your family, but you’d best buckle up. If you thought things were bumpy before…
Yes, you’re still in God’s hands. Hold on to that thought; you’re going to need it.
Dear Josh,
Wow. Reading what you have shared has been insightful and very stirring. You truly are a beautiful person. I want you to know how strongly I believe that.
I do not view homosexuality as beautiful. I’m a straight Mormon, and by saying how I feel about homosexuality I risk being labeled closed-minded. I am not trying to to downplay how real and powerful and common same sex attraction is. But what I see is that it causes its victims tremendous pain, and, more importantly, it can lead them to turn away from God and his limitless blessings. Having same sex attraction does not lessen the worth of a soul in my eyes, and I don’t think it did for President Kimball either. But it is because of the love I have for the children of God that I can’t look at homosexuality as a beautiful thing. It is a bringer of destruction. It is hideous to me, just as any form of unrighteousness. I don’t know if I’ve explained that super well, but since you are life-long church member, I think you will get what I mean.
Let me tell you what I think is beautiful. I think it is beautiful when a child of God, full of imperfections and weaknesses (as God intended us to be) turns himself or herself over entirely to Christ and determines to follow the covenant path despite the hardships that may come with that (as I believe God wants us to). Yes, I can see how being gay would be a unique obstacle to following God’s commandments. I can’t relate my own challenges to that (although I certainly have plenty of the challenges of mortality, including unrighteous sexual urges). But what is beautiful to me is that you actually did it. Up until now at least.
This is your life and your marriage, and I am not trying to tell you what you are supposed to do in this situation. I am not finish enough to think that I know what your marriage is like and whether or not you are making the right decision by getting divorced.
Here’s what I do know, though, and I have to say it just in case this message manages to get to you. Homosexuality will never bring you happiness. You have been deceived by Satan if you have come to believe that a homosexual relationship will bring you lasting happiness. It may bring you some form of fulfillment that the world would call healthy. But if you know and have a testimony of the scriptures like I hope you do, then you know that in order to seek that temporary fulfillment in mortality, you have to trade in your eternal crown.
I appreciate your message of self-love. The subject of suicide is so sad and sickening. My heart breaks for those who have lost gay relatives to suicide. Suicide is another thing that is not beautiful to me. I abhor it. And I am quite sure that suicidal thoughts are directly from Satan. You are a student of the scriptures, so I don’t think I need to give you a lesson about what Satan wants and why. Suffice it to say that he loves nothing more than for people to take their own lives, and this usually starts with getting people to hate themselves. So I definitely agree with you on the importance of being able to love yourself. The church teaches people that, gay or straight, a child of God is of infinite worth and potential.a Buten there is another extreme, which is, I love myself to the point that all that matters is what I want. I want to love a man because that is my natural orientation, and I am entitled to get to live and be loved in that way. Such ideas are also lies from Satan. So I see two satanic temptations at play here: (1) giving up on life in general because it’s too hard to fight your own unrighteous desires and (2) giving up on fighting your own unrighteous urges because it’s easier too embrace them and abandon your morals. You seem to have become convinced that you have to pick one or the other, which I also believe is a lie from Satan. Those are the two choices that would please him most.
Don’t believe for a moment that God wants you to embrace homosexuality. That’s basically all I’m really trying to say. Don’t buy into Satan’s lies. You have fought him this long. He promises and entices but that is never the right way to go. The grass is always greener on the other side, but consider the possibility that the love that you and your wife have is more real and worthwhile than any “romance” that you feel like you are missing out on.
Oh, also, I can’t help but see your whole big love homestead plan as anything different than an apostate polygamist group. In that, I see an attitude of, “I’m inventing my own version of the family because I know better than God.” The Weedite schism, if you end up forming it, will not be any less emotionally harmful to its victims than those other polygamist schisms. Some extended family of mine was wrapped up in that kind of weirdness, and generations later it is still having negative effects. You are dangling the well-being of your children and grandchildren very precariously by deciding to chase rainbows.
I hope you can take this not as an attack, but as a heartfelt dose of honesty and openness just as you have shared. I don’t have all the answers, but out of genuine concern I wanted to share a couple things that I saw wrong in the reasoning you have shared. I hope it’s worth something to you, or to somebody.
Bigot.
You keep saying you are speaking from a place of love, but you’ve missed several key points. Josh painstaking explained how continuing on in a relationship that had 0% chance of romantic fulfilment killed him inside. It was the exact act of trying so hard following the commandments of being in a heterosexual marriage, that led him to suicidal thoughts. He even says, had he continued down that path, he likely would have killed himself. Now, I’m not so arrogant to assume I know what God wants for another person, but I doubt he would rather Josh to die, leaving his children fatherless, than pursue a homosexual relationship. Let him live. Warning him of satanic temptings, polygomist camps, and hell does no good. Any person who is gay and mormon has extremely difficult choices to make. They must sacrifice something of themselves. Either of their religion, sometimes their family, basic acceptance of their peers, or in the case of the celibate or mixed orientation marraiges, the deep human (and I daresay godlike) need to love, and no, I don’t mean just sex. I’m straight, but I sympathize deeply, imaging a world where I must never have a crush. Never feel butterflies. Never see a spark in another persons eye. Never be allowed to entertain the thought, for fear it was evil. To never hold hands. To never feel the electricity of a real, deep love. Or to even dream of it. I could say so much more on the subject, but I’ll boil it down to this, have compassion for those you don’t understand. And don’t assume you know what God wants for him. You don’t.
I’m not going to label you as Mr. Clark did, but I will say that your response to this post shows a lack of faith in the redemptive power of Jesus Christ and the Atonement. If complete obedience to the law is all that is necessary in this life for God’s purposes to be fulfilled, He would not have set up Adam and Eve with two opposing commandments. Pearl of Great Price 5:11 indicates that transgressing commandments is sometimes necessary for us to gain the knowledge to be whole-heartedly obedient. That’s why a Savior was necessary. We in this life are all set up to transgress commandments. You, Chris, seem to be set up to transgress the Savior’s admonition not to judge others. We all need repentance because we all need to actually live to learn. For Josh and Lollie to live, right now they need to follow the path they’ve been shown. And who are you to say their impressions are false? Didn’t God command Nephi to kill? Isn’t that against a very fundamental commandment? If Josh and Lollie are following the guidance they feel they’ve received after all the fasting and prayer they’ve done, it’s really not for you to tell them they’re wrong.
Let me respond to your comment.
You see being gay as ugly and disgusting and destructive. That says so much about you, but really, nothing at all about gay people.
Destructive? Whom exactly have I hurt? I am a law abiding, tax paying, productive, contributing member of my community. We are well thought of by family, friends, community, neighbors, and colleagues. We don’t bother anyone, and people are proud to know us, because we add to their lives, and the life of our community. We have a great and happy life together. The part that bothers you the most is that we clearly don’t know the place you have assigned to us, we refuse to live the lives you want us to have. Uppity fags is the word you were looking for, and that is what bothers you the most.
You want to talk about destructive? Let’s talk about YOU, your ugly attitudes, the stories you tell yourself, and your pretense at morality. The immorality of what has been done to gay people for 2000 years probably doesn’t even begin to register in your morally superior universe. Murders, beatings, jails, suicides,destroyed lives, destroyed careers, destroyed families, fake marriages, lives of furtive sex, depression, substance abuse, lies lies and more lies.
All so that YOU can feel superior.
I’ll give you a great example of the destruction you have wrought. Until the law finally changed, gay people were routinely kicked out of the military under don’t ask don’t tell. Some years ago, a large number of Arabic and Farsi translators were kicked out of the military because people like you were just so upset that their genitalia responded to the wrong stimulus. The resulting shortage of translators resulted in the deaths of untold numbers of American soldiers in our immoral, Republican sponsored wars in the Middle East.
You are currently doing a huge amount of damage to your church, as are the purveyors of hate disguised as love in other conservative churches.
But you know what? You deserve it. Because that, dear brother in Christ, is what you put out into the world.
Chris, I see so many similarities in the way you’re thinking about this issue and they way Josh’s post five years ago was written. It’s very similar to the way I was raised and how I thought about homosexuality up until a few years ago. Somewhere along the lines of, “it’s okay to be gay, just not to do gay thongs. Because there’s only one right way to god and anything other than what I’ve been taught by my church is the right way has to be from Satan.” Love the sinner, hate the sin. Being gay is just one of those really tough trials that you have to get through. For so many years of my life, I honestly thought I was being open-minded, loving, and accepting when I perpetuated these kinds of ideas that my church taught me. I’ve since changed my mind. I’ve moved to a place beyond my original thinking that has opened up so many more doors in my heart and mind and has created spaces for so much genuine love! And I see that journey in Josh’s as well as Lolly’s words. You don’t have to explain the mindset that you believe in to them. They get it. They were there! For a lifetime! Josh was taught exactly what you said in your comment for his entire life. For 15 years, Josh and Lolly created a beautiful life together full of faith, prayer, scripture study, family home evening, temple attendance, beautiful children, learning and growing together. THEY DID EVERYTHING “RIGHT.” By your standards, by Josh and Lolly’s standards, by the church’s standards..they did everything right. It should’ve been enough. Or at least okay. Or at least survivable. And yet, JOSH STILL WANTED TO DIE. Chris, I think you missed a lot of the point of this post. The messages that we, as individuals, as societies, and as the church sends about homosexuality are wrong, harmful, and potentially deadly. He feels really strongly about getting this message out because dammit, it’s important. And it took him years and years and years of struggle and prayer and faith and heartache and church and connection and reading and crying and thinking and trying and studying and asking and experiencing and growing and accepting..for him to come to this realization. Chris, I’m not faulting you for being where you’re at in terms of belief because, like I said, I was there too. I legitimately thought I had all the answers. I think Josh used to as well. Now, I’ll be the first to tell you that there’s hardly ANYTHING I can say for sure that I KNOW. But one thing that’s become really important to me is to love (and I mean genuinely love, without any qualifiers) people. I think it can be really easy to say “hey, I know what you need to do here in this situation!” It’s a lot harder to step back and listen, learn, grow, and consider the possibility that you might not have all the answers. Maybe god and the plan of salvation are concepts that we, as mortals, don’t even fully comprehend. It could be something completely different than anything we’ve EVER considered. I just know that when people from minority groups who have been consistently and systematically shamed, mistreated, harmed, and considered as “less than” come forward and say, “hey, this is really important, please listen..” it’s the job then for the rest of the population to stand back and listen. Let them be heard. Help them be heard. Believe what they’re saying. Because it’s important! As a straight male in the church (this is an assumption of you on my part), you haven’t gone through the same things that a gay male of the church has gone through. You may not have had the opportunity to go through the same process where your mind was changed from what you previously were taught and believed in with all your heart. It’s so much harder for someone on the outside of this experience to fully understand and appreciate it. That’s why listening and truly hearing and validating are so important.
Sorry, “gay things,” not “thongs!”
And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.
Back to those pesky first laws of the kingdom again, right? 🙂
This post has given me so much hope, Lolly and Josh. Thank you thank you thank you. I’m still on my personal journey of learning to love myself and seeing my gayness as “beautiful”, but you both have made me realize that I need to make my own personal decisions and feel in my heart that they are what God intends for me to do. These decisions may not be how I’ve always pictured my life to be, which has been a typical poster family for the LDS Church consisting of a husband and wife with beautiful children they created together. I’m realizing now that that life is most likely not in the books for me and will ultimately not bring me the happiness I’m seeking. This post helped me to realize that that is OKAY. Thank you again. Thank you for being honest and open and so vulnerable. My prayers are with you.
This is absolutely beautiful. Thank you so much for sharing your souls. I cannot even explain how beautiful it is to me.
Your story is inspiring for people who are trying to find truth despite their conditioning. It’s especially challenging when everyone around you is so sure about “what God wants”. It’s incredibly challenging to not allow that outer dialogue control your inner dialogue as well. However I think if you can break through the conditioning and silence your inner demons, you might hear God You might also be surprised what he has to say. Lately I’ve been silencing the deceitful voices of my youth and looking for a God of Truth rather than tradition. This is a resource that helped me start to see the truth and I truly hope it can help you both to experience more authentic happiness.
https://cesletter.org/
I felt a sigh of relief while reading this. Love one another, whoever they are. End of story.
What is the point of this?
Some gay guy finds out that a church that has always had a strong position against gay people is against gay people?
Pot, meet kettle.
Kettle, meet pot.
Take time to get aquatinted.
Stop letting gossip lead your life and live it yourself, instead.
Stop going to people you barely know for their opinions and start talking to people that might actually understand the problem you have.
Also since we are all giving personal beliefs here: the fact that you feel no sexual desire does not make you gay.
If you love someone, you do not need sex to be with them.
I’m surprised there aren’t more pissed off people from the lgbtqi pointing this out, angrily at you for making it sound like attraction has only to do with sex.
What kind of pathological self-absorption makes you think I have one iota of concern about whether you “respect” my “reaction”?
I’ll save my compassion for the struggling gay teenagers you helped drive to suicide.
For you, I will never feel anything but utter contempt.
Thank you for this post, for being vulnerable and honest. You are helping a lot of people. I am feeling both devastated and elated for the two of you. May all your dreams come true.
While I understand you feel like you are doing a service to the LGBT brothers and sisters you mistakenly misguided in 2012, you have done the exact same thing with this post as you did with that one. Five years ago you told them how great your relationship was and if you could do it, they could too. You put yourself above them, which you as much admitted in your apology. Yet, in this latest post you all but said, “if we can’t do this, no one can because we know such more than you because we are both marriage therapists.” That’s not necessarily true in either. Everyone has different experiences. You apologized to those to whom you may have given false hope five years ago. But what if it wasn’t false? Just because you two couldn’t make a go of it doesn’t mean it work for anyone. In all honesty, maybe you should just keep your business to yourself and let others choose for themselves what is best for their lives. If you had done this five years ago, no apologies would be necessary. But instead, you built yourself a rameumptom to yourselves that you had to tear down and then built another one to again tell us how much better and more knowledgeable you are than everyone else…again. Just stop, already. You aren’t helping…at least not everyone.
There is only one reason a gay person would even attempt to live in a mixed orientation marriage and that is the LIE that their natural sexual orientation is somehow disordered. Once that LIE is exposed, there is no reason for this nonsense to continue. I believe we are seeing the last generation of people who will be susceptible to that LIE. Thank God!
This.
Lolly, you are a victim of a sad experiment. Sorry to say. This nonsense needs to stop. Of course, you do not regret your kids. However, you are collateral damage in the Mormon church’s war on natural human sexuality. We live and we learn. TAKE BACK YOUR POWER AS A WOMAN. Do not allow any man-made institution to dictate or have control over such a profound part of your life EVER AGAIN. Forge your own path, and teach your beautiful children to do likewise.
I didn’t think I would read to the end, but the truth and realities were so inspiring and challenging. Best of blessings, and thank you for helping me to grow.
While I wish you much happiness and wholeness in the years ahead, you have much to atone for. For years, you counseled people dealing with sexual issues, including identity issues. How many people did you steer wrong? How many people did you fill with false hope? How many years, collectively, have people wasted because of the ill-informed, in some ways cruel “counseling” you offered as a supposed professional? You need to spend the rest of your life making amends and trying to offset the countless wrongs you have left behind. You literally helped ruin lives and break people, rather than build them up. You must beg forgiveness and then, in all your deeds and words moving forward, you must make up for the awful, horrible sins of your past.
NOBODY CARES. GET OVER YOURSELF. The vanity is staggering! Marrying women and pretending to be straight is what gay men did in the 60s. Try not to do too much harm to your kids. And for god’s sake, SHUT UP.
Josh didn’t pretend to be straight. He was honest about his orientation all the way – no pretending, but yes, a deep denial was present. And a huge huge majority does not want the Weeds to shut up. So grateful for their NOT shutting up. That’s what gay guys in the 60’s did, and it wasn’t healthy, or helpful for them or us.
Took the words out of my mouth. Much ado about nothing.
Replying to jake
Dear Lolly and Josh,
Having been in your position and suffered through a divorce that ended our marriage, wounded my children, and destroyed their and my relationship with my husband, I hope your homestead plans work, that you can retain your relationship, memories and tender feelings for each other.
Lolly, I worry for you. This is painful and hard andi it may not get easier for a long time. But please know you are a hero of love and faith and a beautiful woman. May God bless you both and be with you.
Josh, as an older lesbian who chose to leave the church I was raised in at a very early age before they could make me hate myself for being what I was, I appreciate the apology and I look forward to seeing what sort of activism you choose to help make your church more accepting. May I suggest you put a link to this beautiful essay on top of all your past posts to make it clear to someone who comes in from a link or a search engine that your beliefs have changed?
At any rate, I wish you both the utmost joy of finding someone who lights you up and makes your heart sing! May your lives be blessed by not having to struggle against the truth anymore.
For years I’ve wondered if I should take the leap of faith and marry a woman.
Now I know my answer.
Thank you for sharing your story.
This post really stirred feelings in me…
I’m in a loving hetero marriage… The romance and spiritual aspect can feel missing due to issues other than orientation. Suicidal feelings often come when one feels unloved. Passion for professional pursuits and time away from family can make for love loss… Compassion fatigue and professional burnout in the caring professions can lead to divorce and suicide too often. Mixed orientation marriage would add a fatal element. Thank you for your blog.
Josh, I find you two to be incredibly brave. Before this I had not heard your story (I was still in high school in 2012 and didn’t pay much attention to the media) but reading it here fills me with hope for the LGBT community of faith. I’m a lesbian who grew up in a Protestant church and always had trouble reconciling my orientation and my faith. I talked to camp counselors and church friends and youth leaders about this, and they all said something different, but with the same message. “You can be gay, but….” There was always that but at the end. That I would still be living in sin, that a man’s love would ‘fix’ me, that God doesn’t approve but if I was a very good Christian, He still might accept me into His Kingdom. I lived in intense fear that if I came out to everyone, my every Sunday and after school Bible study and summers at church camp would be spent listening to someone tell me that a part of my identity was wrong. Or, somehow worse, that they would silently think that I didn’t belong there. After struggling this from the age of 11 to 19, I broke away from the church a few years ago. I couldn’t do it anymore.
Reading your story gives me hope for the ones like us. That they find their youth groups an open, trusting place where they can share who they are, the way God made them, without fearing retribution. That they don’t come out of church every Sunday sick to their stomach out of guilt, feeling like they’re living a lie. Because that’s how I felt for a long time, and your transparency gives me hope for the future.
Good on you for finally being honest about yourself, and your relationship. KNOW that your fairy tale of redemption from evil homo to saved hetero caused REAL and sustained harm to people who were struggling. There may be some in the LGBT community who will welcome you with open arms, I however feel you deserve nothing but derision and a good punch to the face. You were selling salvation and the SNAKE OIL you SOLD isn’t washed away by this mea culpa.
Josh and Lolly, I met you when Josh sang in Lamb of God as Thomas a few years ago. I felt we became close friends even though we didn’t know each other, and you probably only vaguely remember me now. But you touched my heart then, and now. I am a faithful LDS Christian mom who loves God and believes in the Atonement of Christ. I don’t pretend to know the depths of God’s love, but I know that He loves us, you, me, all of us, and feeling that love, as much as we can in this imperfect, mortal life, is the greatest gift, but the love that He has for us is so infinite that it will take Eternity just to process it. You are beautiful, Josh and Lolly, and each of your girls I’m thankful for your post, especially because it’s so long and genuine. It’s made me realize I need to ask more questions of God myself, and be patient with answers.
“Not now, but in the coming years,
It may not be when we demand,
We’ll read the meaning of our tears,
And there, sometime, we’ll understand
Why what we long for most of all
Eludes our open, pleading hand;
Why ever silence meets our call,
Somewhere, sometime, we’ll understand.
So trust in God through all thy days;
Fear not, for He doth hold thy hand;
Though dark thy way, still sing and praise,
Sometime, sometime we’ll understand.
Sometime, we’ll fall on bended knee,
And feel there, graven on His hand
Sometime with tearless eyes we’ll see
What, here, we could not understand.
So trust in God through all the days;
Fear not, for He doth hold thy hand;
Though dark thy way, still sing and praise,
Sometime, sometime we’ll understand.”
Love to you, from me, just little me, one person that you’ve moved to tears and continued friendship. Be strong, be brave, be loving.
This is nothing short of heroic. I am going to share it with everyone I know who is (or was, or who I suspect might be) struggling as a bat trying to live as a bird. I hope this is ok. You will literally save lives with this.
So much love, appreciation, and respect and to you and your family. ❤️❤️❤️
Right. Heroic to destroy your family and mess up your kids for a life of self-destructive hedonism.
It can all be summed up in one word: Selfishness.
A few words: none of your business.
Donovan: We get where you are coming from with your “my church is true” certitude and readiness to judge others.
It can all be summed up in one word: Delusional
@Donavan
How DARE you?
Have you ever met anyone gay? Anyone divorced? Anyone non-Christian?
How dare you assume that anyone who does not live life exactly as you would wish it is living a life of self-destructive hedonism?
I’m not gay but I used to be Christian. One of the reasons I left was the sneering at the selfish hedonism of the world. I looked at the kind, considerate, generous, charitable, non-Christians I knew and realised Christian sneering was bigoted nonsense. Gay couples, non-married couples? Their ‘lifestyle’ is pretty similar to any straight married couple. Desiring someone of the same sex is not inherantly selfish.
Wow thank you for explaining your situation with love, compassion and understanding. I am a Gay man who felt pressured at an early age to comply with societal pressure to be “straight”. I have no real religious backround but I have always been taught to be fair and compassionate. Treat others as you would like to be treated. I was also taught not to lie under any circumstances. I knew I was Gay when I was young. All my friends were looking at girls in a curious and sexual way. I couldn’t stop looking at men. I surpressed these feelings for many years and tried my best to lust after women. I had to be truthful to myself and the people around me. I came Out to my parents and family. They were not accepting of me and it hurt like nothing else. I was thrust out into society as a kid with no experience and paid many prices to learn who I really was. Many people that had religious upbringing and teachings saw life very differently as did their children. I can understand how you felt obligated to your religion and your want for a family brought you to your decision to get married. I also understand how you came to terms with the reality of being Gay. It is very helpful to read your post about being truthful to yourself and partner about happiness. Thank you for that. I hope there are more people that understand your path than ones that flame you for your actions.
Evan Darling
That is a great read. You get to know that person and he talks about many more like him and much of what they experience. I had never heard of attachment blockade as a thing before. It makes sense in this context to say that everyone needs love. Without that which a person needs to feel can ultimately end in suicide anytime. I agree with the sentiment that the person doesnt really want to die, but that they want someone’s help, and they dont know if that help is ever going to be available. The Church will never reverse the doctrine on same sex marriage. I think the point is that it’s still not our place to judge what some people go through. And more support is needed to help people to reconcile their own natures. That’s what everyone needs in any case. And in every case I want to say it takes a miracle to even stay in the fight against this or that tendancy. I try to tell people that first of all the point of the gospel is not to dwell in guilt. That is detrimental to having a relationship with your Heavenly Father. It might sound like I’m giving more aphorisms, but the truest statement in my humble healthcare profession is that you must always look for better solutions. Dont settle on a final solution if you are still not happy. You might say, that’s exhausting and that it leads to more suffering, but everyone has a cross to bear and it doesnt come close to weighing what the Lord’s did when he carried it for all of us. So yes, He knows. I think about the potentially billions and billions of people who lived unhappy lives. Do most ever have their heart’s desire satisfied? What percentage of people who ever lived were oppressed, were slaves, or just never truly free? They are still loved by God. Giving it our best shot is all we’ve got to do. Remember, everyone gets a degree of glory. Well, some do want a reciprocating relationship during this life with someone they are mutually attracted to and that absolutely completes them as a person. That’s never a bad desire ok. When your church tells you not to do something and you aren’t sure you can live that way, you make a choice. Because you are free at this time in the world. You know you. But dont leave God out of the decision. Rely on the support that comes from those who would love you in the same way he does. But the gospel isnt your source of misery. If you believe the gospel then you are admitting that you know enough to know how imperfect you are. This is not the same as knowing how much trouble you are in. We always sell ourselves short there. Here’s the big Mormon secret about that. We are not in trouble until we stop trying or give up altogether. But while leaving the church or your marriage would definitely be quitting in some people’s eyes, if you honestly worry about killing yourself, then you take breaks from these stressors, while I obligatorily advise you to get lifelong professional help.
My thoughts on this post:
1. This post reads like a “manifesto”. This post was very subjective in nature. Many generalizations, falsehoods, untruths, blaming others for your own decisions, justifications for wanting the gay lifestyle and leaving your family. You quest to be your “authentic self”. You authentic self you already have been living your whole life already- doing the right thing even when things get hard, not caving to societies pressure, trying to raise your family in a church that actually creates great humans (even if you dont believe). etc etc. Authentic self is not wrapped up in sexual things. It is how you behave in life and what choices you make. There is no excuse in disingrating your family because “YOU” want things now. You have years to come were you can have your “now” when the kids are gone and you can focus on you.
2. Marriage is hard. Even in my own heterosexual marriage, I hate my spouse sometimes, and then I love him. I sometimes can’t stand him touching me, but then I get over it. Marriage has its ebb and flow. Sometimes it is unbearable and others times grands. This is no different then how you feel. Marrying your best friend is an anomoly. Most people to get that in their lifetimes. You will never find that again, that I can promise. No one will take the place of your best friend, lover, and the mother of your children. You have just been blinded by societal pressures to “be who you are suppose to be”. What does that even mean really? If this is how you are I wouldn’t even want you. Who wants a man who can pick pleasure over his family? I’d run if I ever found that out. Now Lolly is to blame slightly, although I feel her side was more in a loving manner then yours. She stayed to support your quest for happiness. She loves you, that what people do when they love someone.
The alcoholic analogy – This analogy fits whats you have done to get to this point. The premise is that you have recovering alcoholic who goes to the bar with his friends and things that he can substain from drinking alcohol. Over and over again he does succeed, but slowly but surely he says to himself, “hmm maybe 1/2 a drink will not hurt”. Then the next he says ” ok well that didnt’ hurt me so I will try a full Drink. This continues until he has now has gotten himself into an alcoholic lifestyle, he then thinks that alcohol is more important then his family and leaves them for the alcohol. If you see the similarities you will see that you are that analogical alcoholic. You came out to the world, you then decided to stay in that fame by doing things that would emmerse yourself in the gay lifestyle such as interviews, activism. How would you not see that you would eventually do what we all thought you would do. I do not only blame you Josh. Lolly was apart of the fall too by not saying “stop”. This should not have been public to begin with because its your family and you should have protected them especially your littles girls that will be confused for life.
Your kids- How are your girls even going to feel good about themselves? They see their dad go so public, its all over the net for them to eventually see when they grow older. They will see the destruction of their family LIVE. They will never trust. It is hard enough to be a women in this world without now having to worry about more things like you have put lolly through. Your children are so stoic now and say the things they say now because they love you both, but down underneath they are screaming internally. This will eventually come out, that I can promise. I know as a child I would be. Being left is not a fun thing. I have been through it. My mom took off for a new life when I was 19 and it has stung each and every one of use all these years. I have many angry siblings still 25 years later. The thing about it is, my moms older self regrets her decision. She says if she can take it back and could tell her younger self to “stop” she would. Her life has not been like she thought it would be. she had all hese grandious ideas of this new found “authenic self ” and being “fulfilled” she thought she needed. I still remember to this day, my mom coming to my apartment (I was just newly married), saying that she wanted to be fulfilled and she was leaving my dad. I sat crying my eyes out for her coming life and what my little siblings were going to face. My 6 year old brother at the time would never have what I had, and would only know her as the “one that left for your own selfish reasons” as it is referred to as today. Do you really want that? You think this homestead idea will work but it wont. No future partner is going to want the other x metaling in their life. It is not fair to the one you will cleave to and it is not fair for the kids to have to make that choice too. Just overall not fair.
Mormon church- this decision you are making has NOTHING to do with the mormon church. I repeat NOTHING. The church has stayed the same, it is YOU that has changed. Listen the church does not MAKE people commit suicide or feel bad about themselves. If you feel bad its because YOU feel bad. The church gives guideline just like anythings give guidelines. Can you imagine if the CDC didn’t given guideline on preventing infections? This whole “the church is toxic” argument pushes the blame from YOURSELF to someone or something else. YOU are to blame for YOUR actions, even suicide. NO one else. The church does not hold you hostage. You can make a choice to follow or not. Sadly, not all countries allow that (look at the middle east, russia etc).
Sex- Ok im going to be a little mildly graffic here. Men have 2 ways you can have sexs: Oral and Butt. Women have 3 ways: Oral, butt and vaginal. You can get the same pleasures from a women as you can from a man, you just have to experiment. You will probably say it is more then the sex. If that is the case then why are you leaving your wife for a gay lifestyle if it isnt about sexual desire? Our society has slowly but systematically promoted gayness in all the movies, TV shows, ads, news, schools,etc and you wonder why we are getting to the point were society sees it as normal and WHY YOU are where you are at too. You went too deep at the expense of your family. I would consider this new promotion a type of indoctrination brainwashing too. I can’t watch a show without some gay sex scene in it now. WTH. Why would I want my kids to see all that, I don’t even want them seeing heterosexual scenes. Those topics are too much for kids to understand. This brings me back to the kids, should then even be exposed to this type of stuff at such a young age? probably not.
Overall, I find your act selfish and self serving. I hope your family makes it throughit. In 5 years, I am going to revisit your blog to see were you are. I have a feeling your sadness and thoughts will not be satified. Nothing will feel happy without your family.
Good luck. Lolly please be smart. Its time to protect yourself (I would hire a lawyer to protect your interests including the interest in the book Josh is producing). If he wants to go onto another life, dont hold on, do the same. Move on or you will be stuck.
When we classify relationships according to sexual attraction, we subvert the inherent reasons for the relationship to secular worldview. As a heterosexual man, if I have been with my wife and our beautiful children for many years, but no longer find my wife sexually attractive, does it mean that I should seek a divorce, and find a woman who is sexually attractive? Our culture today would have no objection. In my opinion, moral ambiguity is at the foundation of all of these problems.
Hopefully your wife can find freedom from a husband who doesn’t want her anymore or maybe you disgust her too. Doesn’t make you heroic. Makes you kinda mean
now that is judgy.
as for gay sex scenes, perhaps you just haven’t seen the right shows – Buffy the Vampire Slayer has some pretty cool lesbian ones, not porny. And I also recommend the film, ‘Call me by your name,’ – not porn like at all. It is beautiful and moving. As for children, they’re pretty darned unflappable. Example, telling your five year old that Uncle Bob is gay. “Uncle Bob is gay.” child: “Ok. can we have pizza?” As for having the same pleasure – have you tried having sex with the gender you aren’t attracted to and how did that go. There are many ways, you just have to experiment.
Your post is so angry – now that much anger at someone you don’t know usually indicates something is wonky about the person who is angry. Look inside maybe.
Uhmm it’s entirely different when mommy is reared and heartbroken telling her 5 year old daughter that daddy is moving out because he wants to have sex with other people then mommy. Don’t trivialize a extremely paiin event for a child. Divorce is an extremely painful event for children, especially because daddy leaving mommy because he’s not attracted her her!! Children can perceive pain.
They BOTH want to have relationships with other people. Trying to guilt anyone into staying in a marriage for the children is manipulative as heck. And it’s not going to work.
Actually it’s no munipularive. They took a vow at the beginning of marriage for better or worse. They bright children into this world. Their desires are now on back burner to that fact. Sorry. You bring kids into this world and all bets are off.
Reread this post from 2 other perspectives:
1. As a heterosexual man who decides to leave his wife for another women because he is not attracted to her
2. As a gay man married to a man and he decides that he wants to be with a women now because he decides he’s not attracted to men anymore.
Insert these 2 scenarios into this post and it would not fly very well. The lgbt community would have a fit and all us women would think he’s at A hole for leaving his wife for another women.
It is only ok because josh is switching to gay. So ridiculous. It’s all the same. Mental cheating is cheating.
Sorry but the post sounds as though josh doesnt want to be with her anymore and Lolly is trying to come to grips with that fact so she is being stoic. How heart breaking. You all are act like this is ok but it’s not. I see post like he is so wonderful. He is not. He is weak and he is selfish. sorry but he is.
Maybe that isn’t what momm6 is saying at all, just your fanatasy about what it’s all about.
You can think it is ridiculous. You can heap judgement. Doesn’t make it true. Doesn’t change a thing. Really judging someone’s very personal life is kind of weird. It doesn’t matter if you hate Josh. Won’t change a thing. Wont change their minds won’t make them hate themselves. Nada. Won’t help or hurt Lolly. Won’t help anyone else.
You muSt have me confused with someone else. Nothing I said.
I don’t heap judgment on him at all. I don’t hate him. I’m not the one that referred to mommy.
Yes! Truth right here
Judgy?? That person spoke truth. All of it. That’s what guy on guy sex is. You put it in the poop hole. It’s a nasty imitation of the real thing. So you can take your feelings and get the steppin wit yo sensitive tumblr warrior ass Lololololo
If you think that because sex is mechanically similar regardless of who is involved, that means that it doesn’t matter who you have it with, then sorry, you have never had sex. You have only used another person as a sex toy to masturbate with. Or been used as one.
This post isn’t heroic, it’s just sad.
And I don’t mean sad for the writer. I mean sad for everyone else.
This guy was brainwashed by a culture that told him religion holds divine truth. It doesn’t. Any facts found in religious texts are those discovered by humans. If the Bible or the Book of Mormon or any other religious texts were divine, they wouldn’t tell gay people that they’re an abomination, they wouldn’t tell us HOW to keep and treat our slaves [instead of telling us that slavery is wrong], and they wouldn’t give us outmoded and destructive messages about the value of women. (Oh, but that’s man’s error, right?! Then why did your god allow humans to put those errors in its handbook for living a good life? What kind of god would do that?)
After his brainwashing, this guy becomes a therapist and, going against everything we’re taught by the APA and our professors and mentors, he infuses his therapy with religion, teaching his clients that they’re broken if they’re gay. He even goes a step further, and professes to be able to FIX gay people, demonstrating his success by marrying a woman and producing children with her.
Now that that marriage has fallen apart, as nearly all of them eventually do, we’re supposed to regard him as some sort of hero for coming out? Are you kidding me? Do you have any idea how many lives this guy has ruined? How many people he and his absurd and hateful message about homosexuality have driven to the point of suicide? Should he get a medal for finally coming to the conclusion the rest of us RATIONAL and DECENT people came to at the age of 5?
Sorry, but no. You get nothing. You don’t have my acceptance, my forgiveness, or my mercy. I hope your life is as miserable from this point as you’ve made millions of others.
I’d say focus your attention on Ty Mansfield now. He is, in my opinion, the real danger. And he is going to come out swinging on this one lest his own MOM fall apart.
I don’t like anything of what Josh Weed stood for. none of it. I have fought against that destructive thing my entire life, and I am 67 now.
But I was lucky. I wasn’t raised a Mormon. I wasn’t taught to hate myself. I had wonderful people in my life that taught me to love myself.
Cut him some slack, please. We all have a journeys to make, our things to learn. You cannot undo the past, but you can atone for what you have done. That is what he is trying to do.
Oh hold on for a minute, Sheldon. I think you’re confusing Josh with people like Ty Mansfield. I’ve followed his story closely since the beginning I have never seen ANY indication that Josh “infuses his therapy with religion, teaching his clients they’re broken if they are gay.” He has repeatedly said just the opposite from the very beginning of his story on this blog.
Has his situation and story been used as a weapon by religious homophobes against gay people? Yes. I have been concerned about that all along. The fact that he has admitted this and is trying to make amends is the very definition of honorable, at least in my book.
yup. Ty is the real danger here. He encourages mixed orientation marriages and Mormon gay guys who are married to attend weekend workshops where they hold each other. He believes and preaches and uses in his therapy old debunked theories about why people are gay. He has left his ‘gay lifestyle’ but is as seemingly as obsessed with the issue as he was when he was still in it. He and his wife have had four kids in six years I think – making it more difficult to leave him. He’s dangerous and hides behind academia – and lots of false academia – to support what he claims. He should have his license to perform therapy revoked. Meanwhile his wife posts about how love isn’t about romance almost immediately after Josh’s latest blog post. It’s kinda pathetic but mostly just dangerous. He’s going to come out swinging on this – just wait. Some long blog post with references and some picture of him looking pained. Just wait for it.
I love introspective people who are humble enough to act on and make changes in their lives, following periods of introspection. I am hopeful that both Josh and Lolly will be able to experience the unparalleled joy and excitement that can come through connecting romantically with another person.
I hope that as your life settles into a new normal, you will turn your introspection away from yourselves for a time, and focus, instead, on a much deeper examination of Mormonism, itself. Your blog was probably twice as long as it needed to be. The reason I write this is because you both spent an inordinate amount of time trying to convince the reader (many of whom you knew would be Mormon), that you are good people, devout believers, never doing anything contrary to the commandments. You knew, like all Mormons know, that the default assumptions made by the Mormons reading your blog would be coming from a place of judgment and condemnation. You knew that many would assume you had strayed in one way or another from the rules of Mormonism, and THAT is why you are in this “predicament.” So you spent the blog anticipating the judgments, and defending yourselves from them, preemptively. You took great pains to make sure that everyone knows you still hold the church as paramount, and would continue to take your daughters to a church where you admitted, 2 of them might not be able to be baptized, because of a rule that violates the very principles of Mormonism you hold dear. There is an imbalance and inconsistency here. It deserves examining, for the sake of your daughters and for your own healing, as individuals. If, “…by their fruits ye shall know them,” is true, then Mormonism has a lot to answer for in the pain and heartache it has brought to 2 VERY GOOD PEOPLE, and will continue to bring to you and your daughters in the future.
I hope that you spend some time researching the truth about Mormonism. It is not what it claims to be. You are killing yourselves, trying to honor a religion that holds its members to a higher standard of honesty and integrity than it does, itself. At the same time, it tries to convince you that you are only good because of its influence in your life. No. If there is any good in Mormonism, it comes from what the people bring TO it. People like you two and your daughters. A lovely family of 6, who will continue to face shaming and condemnation as you move forward to seek your joy.
Bonnie, I’m not sure an anti-Mormon approach is helpful here. I see that you have a beef, but let me suggest that directing your energies to a positive approach might be more fruitful. Even if you disagree sharply with thee LDS church, you’ll find more success when you build on common beliefs. Much as our missionaries don’t decry other religions, but rather teach the truth as we understand it the way Jesus did, I hope you’ll choose a path that honors the Savior’s love for all people.
The LDS church doesn’t claim to be perfect. In fact, lately we’ve been doing more than ever to openly discuss the mistakes we’ve made in policy over the years. It’s okay to recognize that God and Jesus Christ are perfect, but even the church we believe They founded isn’t because even the best of well-intentioned people aren’t perfect.
Anyone claiming to be Christian of any stripe and reading this blog “from a place of judgment and condemnation” fails to live up to their own professed ideals. If you consider yourself Christian, you may wish to consider judging all LDS folk this way. Even secular humanists preach a more loving approach to those with whom they disagree.
All the best to you in your journey in this life. May it be joyful, peaceful and filled with love.
I came back to figure out how to turn off the notifications that I inadvertently turned on. I have to say I am stunned at some of the responses. On the one hand, I suppose that writing about any of this in a public blog is kind of asking for people to pass judgment. On the other hand, there seem to be a lot of people here who don’t have any idea what they are talking about. Josh and Jolly believed that they were making the right decisions at the time they were making them. We all learn, we all grow, and we all have a rergret or two under our belts. If we really want to place blame, then blame falls squarely on the LDS church. Many of you, including Josh and Jolly, may not want to face that, but it is true. The church has an amazing (and unhealthy, in my opinion) amouunt of influence over the lives of it’s members. They have been responsible for countless suicides, failed marriages and broken families – the exact opposite of what they claim to represent. I hope that someday each and every one of you will realize the destructiveness of the churches policies and to recognize that the LDS church is not ‘the one true church.’ It is little more than a large corporation run by a group of old, white, heterosexual men with too much money and too much political influence. It is not the way to salvation.
It’s quite clear that God has a purpose for both your lives, and that this article fulfills that purpose.
Thank you so much.
I have a very dear close friend that has gone trough that. After 25 years of marriage, and a lovely home, deep fellowship with each other, and a home dedicated to God, he destroyed everything for the sake of a boy of 23 who has now disappeared from his life. All has been destroyed, the pain I saw firsthand, the despair, the family in tatters, the tears of the two daughters, the grandchildren in despair, I passed in front of their old house the other day and everything is in shambles, the garden she cared for, the patio full of weeds, and her life was only spared because she is a real Christian. No, it is not OK to go against God’s will. No, its not OK call good what God has called BAD. We Christians are not judging, IT IS ALREADY JUDGED BY GOD. It is written in the Bible in many places, from Old to the New Testament that IT IS ABOMINATION, IT IS WRONG, IT IS BECAUSE PEOPLE DO NOT LOVE TRUTH THAT GOD THEN GIVES THEM UP TO A WRONG DISPOSITION TO COMMIT WRONG ACTS, MEN WITH MEN AND BRINGING OVER THEM JUDGEMENT. Call us Christians, bigots, call us what you want, but we are not judging what is already judged . God has judged it and said NO NO NO . Please go on going to hell in a handbasket if you want to, however do not say Christians are judging, we are not, we are telling you WHAT IS ALREADY JUDGED BY GOD AND HE IS NOT GOING TO CHANGE. This is sin like every sin and when a person finds the real Lord Jesus He will help them to live a life that is worth it, not going after some guy who will never love the man, only because some physical feelings of sex, something that can very well be controlled by God when a person wants.
Your all caps make it seem even more judgy.
Do you have any idea how many translations and interpretations of “THE BIBLE” there are? Do you have any idea how many of the passages you site as proof of “Abomination” have been debunked by biblical scholars of multiple christian faiths…as during those translations certain words were replaced with other words meaning something entirely different because no word existed in that particular language to characterize what was being interpreted (assuming you believe the original scripture)? People like you are a true cancer on tolerance, love, and enlightenment for all mankind. I’m greatly relieved I will never likely meet a bigot like you in this life…but a teensy bit disappointed I won’t get to see the look of your ghostly face when you get to the other side and find out what God is really all about. You and your ilk are the true abomination.
Or not.
Exactly who are YOU to judge? In the case of your friend. He was never given a chance to grow up, and of course, made bad decisions. Other people had to suffer for it. It had nothing to do with his being gay, and everything with a faith and a bigotry that never enabled him to make grown up decisions.
Hi Josh,
In reference to your friend who had suicidal ideation:
“Guys, this person is an incredible human being. This person’s faith was rock solid. If you knew her, you would see a pillar of strength, of will, of resolve. She is one of the strongest people I know. This is not someone who is easily offended, or was not trying, or who “didn’t have an eternal perspective.” Think of the strongest person you know: that’s who this is equivalent of.”
The way this is worded perpetuates the stigma of mental illness—in a colossal way. It indirectly implies that anyone else struggling with suicidal ideation is weak and faithless and not trying; everyone should be flabbergasted that someone strong is struggling.
I can tell you that people battling passive and active suicidal thoughts are some of the strongest people on the planet! Warriors!!!
I’m not here to be a troll or to throw insults. I have a genuine concern for the reduction and elimination of stigma that surrounds mental illness. I respectfully ask that you consider restating your point in a way that doesn’t harm those who suffer.
Thank you for reading.
Josh and Lolly, this is Evan Hurst. I used to work at Truth Wins Out, and we may have tangled a time or three in the past.
I just wanted to say “WOW” and that I wish nothing but joy for you both and for your family. You will help many, many people with these brutally honest, heartbreaking, hopeful words, and from reading the whole post, I get the sense you both feel your work is just beginning.
Take care of yourselves.
Evan
Hi Evan. Long time no see.
A million words to make sense of what doesn’t, and never will make sense and it’s absolutely pointless. There has to be sexual attraction and chemistry, fire between two people and for that to happen they both need to be straight.
Your marriage was destined to fail and completely pointless from the start.
Oh, Josh, Lolly! 💔 My heart both breaks for you AND at the same time soars with HOPE and joy! You are amazing, precious people. Thank you for the gift of the candidly, intimately sharing of your journey and your reality. There is strength and healing in speaking our truth, in fact, there is no other way to full humanity and compassion.
This is an incredibly sad story and not of God.
Your kids will be emotionally scarred by this selfishness for the rest of their lives. Both of you have missed what marriage is all about. One day in your old age, you’ll look back on this time with great regret.
I really hope that you discover who Jesus is for the first time and turn this around.
I am 100% certain that if YOU had discovered who Jesus true is you wouldn’t make comments like this one. Think about it and have a nice day. You don’t know them or their children how dare you condemn.
Uh, yeah he does know them. These people have over shared every detail of their life for notoriety. That’s their own fault that others can now jump into the conversation and judge off of what they see, genius. Lol. “How dare you”?? Hahahaha what a puss. Typical SJW argument. Got offended for everything and not offer any counter argument of any real substance. Lol. Use Jesus and religion when it’s convenient for your argument. Lololol
More truth 👆🏼👏🏼
The harm and wasted years I experienced in my life as a result of evangelical teaching produced much the same results: self-loathing, absurd belief that god would “heal” me, belief that being gay was a sin, judgment of those who “gave in,” etc. These harmful teachings are NOT exclusive to the Mormon church. They tend to be true all across the board with churches that use the Bible as their basis. Many verses within it give ammunition to people who shame and attempt to obliterate LGBTQs. The problem is the book’s teachings in and of themselves, as far as I can see. That’s why I moved on.
Dear Josh and Lolly,
This is a beautiful statement. I found your story on a Gay website ( I am a 60 year old Gay man) and, yes, the schadenfreude was in full swing. Having read your entire piece, I cannot feel that way. I believe no one would.
You have a new mission. Speak your Truth. Do as your daughter says, go on Ellen. Contact the news networks that carried your original story and say you have a great follow up piece. Contact Voices of Hope and share with them. Bisexuality and the Kinsey Scale are real, and The Unicorn may work for some people. But it is us Fabulous Fruit Bats who need protection from a world that says we are “biologically wrong”.
I am an Uncle. I hope I am helping a devout (and devoutly straight!) nephew be the best man he can be. I will not be passing on my own genes, but I may be able to help my family’s heritage. It has been this way always, Childless Aunts and Uncles who stepped in when parents could not, saving lives in many ways, serving a biological purpose. Deserving to be loved. Deserving of Romance.
Sincerely,
GIII
Sir, if you and your nephew are genetically related at all (instead of your sibling having adopted him and/or his parent being your step-sibling instead of genetic sibling and/or etc.) then you are still passing on your own genes.
By helping him survive and thrive, you are helping the survival of his genes that are your genes too because you two got those genes from an ancestor in common. 🙂
My point exactly! Thank you.
Thank you for this beautiful posting. I feel blessed to have read it at a very appropriate moment, while struggling with my own church’s attitudes to such issues.
As I read of your hopes and challenges for the future, I was struck that if you chanced to find a bisexual man BOTH of you could relate with romantically and sexually, that might give neat, perhaps miraculous, closure for you all.
Please don’t take that as my telling you what you should be and how to lead your lives. I can see you’ve had plenty enough of that already. I mention it simply because I’m conscious it’s a possibility you might never even have considered.
I applaud your mutual decision to live your lives authentically and truly wish for the best for both of you.
I am heartbroken, though, particularly for Lolly. If you’ve been out of the Mormon dating game for 15ish years, I’m afraid that you’re going to find it incredibly challenging. In the age of Tinder, dating has become very image-driven. I’m sorry that you felt insecure about your body in your marriage, but dating is definitely not going to help and may, in fact, magnify all of the issues that you’ve had previous to now.
Worthiness and love is something that has to come from within–other people can’t give it to you, but their comments and actions can definitely make it harder to achieve.
Again, I’m not saying that you should stay in your present circumstances, but I do find it disturbing that you seem to equate so much happiness with (the hope of) being romantically attached. I think that once you begin dating again, you may find that hope extremely difficult to maintain.
Matt and Lolly, I have compassion for the challenging road you have both clearly travelled through your relationship. I am sure neither I or anyone on this planet could truly understand all it entails.
This message is for those members of the LDS church who may be confused by this Weed life update and struggling to make sense of it.
The adversary has been and is persuasive. His words are well crafted to influence. Throughout time many have been deceived as a result. He would poison your thoughts by degrees if allowed. Darkness is still darkness. It cannot and does not lead to lasting happiness or peace.
When someone forms an opinion or stance that is in opposition to those who stand as mouthpieces of the Lord on the earth, regardless of how much good is mixed in with it, they become an apostate. Be careful who you take to be your teacher. Even the very elect could be deceived by the enemy of truth. Hold to the light and those who lead you to it.
In other words, the truths that they so carefully and clearly stated are simply the words of the devil.
It would never be the case that 2000 years of bitter bigotry and hatred have been hisding behind things like bigotry, hatred, despite, ignorance, stupidly, prejudice, and fear.
Nah.
His name is Josh, not Matt.
Yep. Words of the Devil. Lol.
Yup! Well put!
Well, since I have known plenty of gay relationships that have led to lasting happiness, including my great uncle and his life partner, gay relationships are proven by their fruits to be light and goodness and we can all go home.
My heartbreaks for the pain you are feeling and more for the pain you were feeling and denying for all these years. May God bless and keep you both and your girls. May he make his face to shine upon you. May he bring to your life the partners who will fill the void and respect the bond you have, love your girls and strengthen your family unit.
I agree. Sara you have eloquently said what I was thinking.
Thanks for sharing your story. I left church when I was 19 and came out shortly after that. 10 years later it’s a completely different world now when it comes to LGBT people.
Thank you for sharing this beautifully written and so deeply personal account of your decision making process with the world. I marvel at your courage to share the “Blossoming of Your Deeper Understanding of Who You Are”. We all deserve kindness and respect because we all in “process”. In this lifetime it is our choice and opportunity to explore and understand the complexity of who we are. Some of us are brave enough to look deep and face the “unknown within” and others, such as yourselves, even more brave to share what you discovered with the world. Your sharing has allowed for the LGBTQIA conversation to begin within your circle of family and friends, and church environment and way beyond – and that conversation will also evolve and be in process for some time I imagine. I am a straight white woman, who was raised Catholic and have family members who are living in a strict Baptist community, so although I was not raised in your church community, I am aware of how limiting and hurtful religious thought constructs can be. My understanding of church has also evolved and I see a distinction between religion with its “man-made rules that conform with society expectations” and spirituality that allows one to connect with their heart to Unconditional Love and the Divine. I am proud and supportive of all of my LGBTQIA friends. Interestingly, I watched the movie last night “Battle of the Sexes” and how Billy Jean King was a woman who helped society question and break down some of the barriers to equality between women and men, and the story also touched on what she was able to do in terms of a greater understanding regarding the LGBTQIA community. Some people become leaders within their community because of their ability to stand firm within their integrity of who they are and speak their truth – like you have done. It would be lovely to meet you one day, as it is clear you are amazing people with amazing and wise children who are connected to their Inner Divinity with the beautiful messages they shared with you from Spirit. In the meantime until me meet, please know that I thank you for your courage to share, and I know within my heart that your evolving story and beautiful example is helping many people from many communities including the LGBTQIA and the straight community. Light, Love and Blessings to you and your family. Janet 🙂
This is a beautiful post. It’s the first I have heard of your story but I know the fight for authenticity. I applaud you and wish you peace and joy.
I appreciate you being willing to share your story, and I ask this question with sincerity, not sarcasm or ill intent. There are other sexual orientations, such as pedophelia for example , that should and do require abstinence from having a romantic relationship with those people they truly find themselves attracted to. As a counselor yourself, would you tell these people that they will/could literally die without this romantic connection to children?
Romantic love is something that requires consent and an adult understanding of emotions. It is a decision that people enter into. You choose to love a particular person and stay with them. It is not something a child could or is capable of giving.
Romantic love is also not a sexual kink that fades away when someone is “too old”, If the “love” that someone feels for another is based on their age, their childish bodies, then it isn’t love, it is fetish. People don’t stop loving their partners just because they grew up, because they got older. And if they did, they didn’t truly love them to begin with.
In short, what pedophiles feel for children is not love. They will not die without it, the lack of it will not kill them, because it was never there to begin with,
Thank you for sharing such a personal journey with us. I have such great hope for you and your family. Stay strong as you move forward in this next phase of life. Your courage and compassion are sources of light for so many.
What you said about more than one family living on the homestead also relates to an older news story: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/brazilians-switched-at-birth-work-live-together/
This one’s heartwarming too:
“Two years back, Dimas Aliprandi and Elton Plaster didn’t know of each other’s existence. Then they learned they had been accidentally switched at birth more than 20 years ago.”
“The discovery did not cause any upset, he said.
“Instead it sparked a desire to join our families,” Aliprandi said. “Elton and I wanted to remain with those who raised us and with our birth parents. We wanted to expand our families.”
So about a year ago, Aliprandi and the parents who raised him accepted an offer from the Plasters to move to their farm, where they built a home.”
Does anyone here know enough Brazilian Portuguese to look up if the Aliprandis and Plasters still live together?
I truly believe that this couple’s initial decision to get married while knowing that he is gay was the bravest and most courageous decision that they have made, because, at the time, their conviction and desire to have a natural family together was stronger than his conviction and desire to live a lifestyle parallel to his sexual orientation. They entered a life-long commitment to this through marriage, and created a family based on that premise. Thousands of gay men and women have made the same decision… to live a heterosexual lifestyle in exchange for the joy of having what THEY consider to be a ‘natural family’. They couldn’t have both, and they wanted one thing more than the other.
Because this couple entered into marriage and created a family with their eyes wide open to those things, I believe that their new decision to divorce is the antithesis of bravery and courage… especially with these four beautiful children involved. I imagine that their children were all conceived naturally, and not through medical intervention, so there must be some level of sexual attraction between them. And I believe that their attraction can increase with gratitude.
My prediction (sad but honest) is that their (or maybe it’s just his) new ‘me first’ theology will ultimately guide them all (especially their children) toward a new level of undue confusion, sadness, anger and depression. I’m sincerely very sad for them.
Trying to scare people with your dire predictions doesn’t chsne anything.
Yep! “Me first” is it. It’s greedy and selfish and will be their undoing, as individuals and as a family.
I am proud to say that I am one of those thousands of people and I did just what Josh and Lolly are doing right now, I married a man in the temple because its what my church and family expected. I was married for 11 years and had three wonderful children. But after 11 years of hating myself and contemplating suicide, I couldn’t do it anymore and me and my husband made the same decision as Josh and Lolly have. Well that was 20 years ago. We both went on to find the loves of our life. My ex-husband is now so much happier because he finally has someone who he truly has a romantic love connection with. And I have an amazing wonderful wife who I love very much. I couldn’t ask for a better life. Our three kids grew up amazing. My two boys served missions and are upstanding happy adults. I think its truly sad that you have to feel this way about people because you don’t have any clue!
Antithesis of bravery and courage. Powerful line.
Be strong and of good courage. “Giving in” isn’t courage. Doing something “hard or difficult” which is against God’s will aka “wrong” is not courage either.
It’s disgusting how NBC, in pushing their ungodly stance, has dubbed Adam Rippon and Gus Kenworthy “heroes.” Folks loosely throw the word hero around on a regular basis, not caring about its definition.
I’m not LDS, but I had to comment and say this is such a powerful story. Some of the things you’ve said are things that my tradition needs to hear in your exact words – even the things you’ve said about God.
You’ve come a long way and I feel honored to have read your story.
Thank you for sharing it.
I’m crying for you. And so grateful. Your original unicorn post open my eyes to the challenges of gay youth. I became determined to be sure that my children, or cousins, would be confident in coming out to me because I would show love as your parents did. Not only when they did, but their whole lives. And it made all the difference for one relationship (so far.) Now, this post had opened my eyes to another level of love– someday I will whole heartedly welcome my sister’s girlfriend/wife, and be so grateful she’s not alone. Thank you both.
Gosh. So many tears reading this. And this was the second time. Thank you both for you honesty. One of the most vulnerable blog posts I have ever read. God bless you both in your journeys.
This is the most beautiful thing I have read in a long time. Thank you so much for sharing your story.
I commend you both, for entering your marriage with as complete honesty as you could. My ex husband was gay and in denial. And I was not given the chance to enter into the marriage knowing all the facts. Had he told me he was gay, I would not have married him. During the course of our marriage, I confronted him multiple times, and he denied his sexuality. Meanwhile his inability to engage with his wife intimately and sexually slowly destroyed me.
I now write and speak on the topic. I hope your honesty will be a beacon to other LGBTQ people, and encourage them not to hide in a closet behind a straight spouse. Thank you for your deep honesty with your wife.
This is a great post. I read their original unicorn one as well. Certainly, life is a journey of learning and I’m sure there is more learning to come. The question that came to mind for me, is if romantic love is so important for survival, what is the fate of someone who identifies as asexual? This is my personal experience, married to a man who is definitely heterosexual. Yes, it is damaging to our relationship and I have considered divorce just so he could find happiness (and actually referenced your unicorn post as an example of how we could make things work). However, in this case… where would my happiness be found? I have no hope of finding anyone whom I would be sexually attracted to. I have frequent suicidal thoughts… but for me, if a loving, non sexual relationship is not enough to be fulfilled and healthy.. then I was created to be miserable.
There is not a single man or woman in the entire world that is worth killing yourself over. Please don’t.
Happiness comes with wanting what you have, not having what you want. It’s that simple. If you are not happy with your husband, then you both need the guidance of a professional counselor to help you find out how to be happy with him, or how to be happy without him. But right now, neither of you are happy. That’s not fair to either of you.
There is no guarantee of happiness, but you have the choice to find out how to be happy.
I suspect Josh failed to consider asexuals. And now it is being used as a way to discredit and question him. Is Josh the only one with answers for you or is this a way to cast doubt on what he is saying? If you are genuinely troubled, surely there are therapists in your area. No need to try and discredit Josh. It is okay.
I’m not Morman and I don’t remember hearing about you before… I am religious though and lgbtaq
I just want to cry and hug you both. This is such a huge moment and I’m so glad that your families, your girls, everyone central to your life can be on board with this. You both even bought a homestead, before all of this was triggered, one that you can now share! God’s looking after you all, and clearly speaks through your girls too. I wish you all the best happiness and for both of you to find that other half that is the romantic soulmate you’ve been waiting for.
I am not a Mormon but was raised Catholic. I understand the “strict” religious upbringing. I also struggled with my orientation for most of my teen years and early 20s (including an attempt at “conversion” therapy). I too became suicidal at the thought I might never have a loving relationship with a person I was attracted to. Luckily I was able to be honest enough with myself to eventually realize that this is who I am AND that who I am is perfect the way I am.
I am now in my mid 60s. I have been with the same man for over 25 years (married the last 5) and I can’t imagine my life without him! I am so glad I was able to figure this out before I hurt myself and others in my quest to conform to a “norm” what was neither normal or real to me.
My question to these two people is simple? What about those who bought into your story? Who denied themselves the reality of real love with another person and finally did what Josh only fantasized about and killed themselves? There is no fixing that! There is no taking that back.
Think you weren’t role models? Whether that was your intention or not YOU WERE, and that possible, horrifically caused other to despair because they could not do what you had done and ended their lives because there was no other choice. How do you fix that?
Am I being harsh? I wonder what the loved ones and families of those dead LGBTQ people think? I think what is harsh is that they will never see or hold those loved ones again.
Hi Butch. You’re not being harsh but you are being unrealistic. Josh had no way of knowing his post would have gone viral & reach as many people as it did, but regardless of how many people it influenced there is no doubt that it was intended to (at the very least) document & show an experiment that others could observe & learn from & (at the most) help others (so yes they were role models). However, to try & make a direct correlation between Josh’s post & someone killing themselves is to ignore a billion other factors that have nothing to do with Josh’s post & it’s an untenable comparison. It is of importance to note, however, that Josh’s actions (along with MANY others including yourself earlier in your life) were in direct response to the teachings of their subscribed religions. While Josh is making the hard choice to change paths & redress unintended negative consequences (however far removed), the LDS church is doing the opposite: they’re doubling down on anti Homosexual policy (despite a clever marketing campaign that they use to pretend to “love” & “accept” those who are not straight).
Glad you both finally realized that a gay man marrying a straight woman and a straight woman marrying a gay man, is not a good idea. You do realize it was your church that taught you all those lies, right? Why would you choose to remain a part of such a corrupt system? Not that evangelical or Catholic or any other major Christian denomination is any better. You may want to research Stockholm Syndrome next, in your path to freedom from ugly shackles. A gay person trying to be fully accepted by a church is not unlike a person of color wanting to be accepted by the KKK, or a Jew by the Nazi Party.
Why stay? Oh, that’s easy. Religious affiliations often come with *communities*, not just theologies. Lots of people aren’t anti-social enough to easily ditch the people close to them.
Thank you, Josh and Lolly, for the opportunity for us to all learn more together. May God bless you and your family.
You are doing something wonderful for your family.I grew up in a loving mixed orientation marriage.I wish my parents took the chance to find that romantic love that they both deserve.
Your children will be happier because both of you will be happier.Lots of love to you wonderful family. (Sorry about the grammar and spelling, I have been crying while writing this)
Reread what I wrote, my loving mixed orintation comment is not ment to be snarky( felt like it came off that way though, and I apologize for not being clear).My parents did and still do have a loving (friendship marriage).However it was and probably is hurtful for the both of them.
I had great parents growing up ( they are even better Grandparents) but the depression was hard on everyone.I understand why they kept on going, but also understand that they would have been much happier if they did things a bit differently.
Yes, it’s going to be hard on your children at first.However, when your children see what it’s like to have parents who are in love love( childish I know but it fits)will be amazing for them.I wish I could see that in my parents eyes.
So long story short: The snowflake-unicorn-bat man couldn’t resist the urge of hooking up with dudes (and taking it in the pooper, because sorry that’s just how it goes down), so he’s leaving his family and manipulating his church’s religious principles in order to justify giving into his homosexual urges… that according to his previous post on this issue is only a sin when you act upon it, but that’s what he’s gonna do now because his mom died and gave him ED or whatever… wait no, he’s not really leaving his family because going to buy a big enough property so that way he can force his kids and ex-wife (and whatever other poor cuck she hooks up with that’ll actually tolerate this twisted set-up and be cool with it) to stick around and watch all of that crap go down, because he wants to have his cake and eat it too… because of a priesthood blessing from a church he kinda but not really believes in (because he picks and chooses the parts that he’ll live by and not). Uh… alright?? Is this supposed to be him being brave or whatever?? We’re supposed to applaud this?? Pass. Life is about doing the hard things, not spending it trying to justify the selfish and easy way out. I mean, this guy is an adult and can do whatever or whoever the hell he pleases. I’ll respect his agency and right to choose, but that doesn’t mean I have to agree with this twisted logic and celebrate the destruction of a family. Good Lordy, man. If this is your path, don’t drag the rest of your family down with you. Live and let live. Let go and let people move on. You’re trying to have it both ways, and you’re just gonna end up hurting the prospects of your ex and kids leading a healthy, normal, independent life from the mess you’re signing up for. Stop being so cliche and selfish. Anyway, props to other people in “mixed-orientation” marriages that still hang tough—those are people I can applaud and cheer on for. There’s nothing decent here in this scenario that I can support. It’s all backwards and messed up. People can respond and be nasty to this post all they want, but those are my thoughts and feelings so go pound sand. I’m done with this blog. Peace.
Hi Pepe L’italiano. So long story short: A guy named Pepe Le Pew prides himself on saying things “like they are” & doesn’t beat around the bush- which works really well when he knows what he’s talking about. But unfortunately when he doesn’t know what he’s talking about his bold arrogance has the opposite effect of making him sound like a dumbass.
Everyone “picks & chooses” what parts they believe in. Whatever your collection of personal beliefs happen to be are also picked & chosen- or do you believe every single thing from a single robotic source? When you’re in a lose/lose situation like Josh then an intelligent person will weigh the pros & cons of both loses & choose the better of the two. Nobody is unaware of the hardships that are involved with either of Josh & Lolly’s choice (keep in mind that Lolly is also making this choice for herself- Josh isn’t “dragging them down”). Plus, why would you think that anything Josh has done/ is doing is “the easy way”? Your reference point of what’s easy is seriously flawed if you can’t see how difficult it would be for Josh & Lolly to stay married, get a divorce, or have a hybrid of sorts.
Pepe Le Pew. Lol. You’re funny aren’t you. Also, Lolly has been in a twisted and warped relationship and will come to her senses, my SJW comrade. Just watch and see. Also, “cult survivor”? Lol. You must be very brave. Lolololo. Get up outta here with your first world problems, tumblr hero biatch.
Hi Pepe. Thank you for recognizing how funny I can be. You’re right that Lolly & Josh are both in a twisted & warped relationship with the LDS church ( a long enough relationship to affect huge life changing decisions) &, like you, I have faith that they will fully realize the beauty of living free from made up theological constraints (come to their senses as you put it). I also had to look up SJW because I’m not on tumblr but I fully accept the praise of being a social justice warrior if you really want to see me as that. I also LOL’d when I finally worked through all the brainwashing that is common with children who grow up in a cult (as I did)- It’s a great feeling to be a survivor. Reading a lot of weird jocular comments from you is nothing compared to a life of mental abuse from a highly organized & sophisticated cult. I will “get up outta here with my first world problems” but at the same time I politely refuse your solicitation to be your “biatch”. Thanks anyway.
I never asked you to be my biatch. You just are. Also, you haven’t lived through anything if you feel like leaving a world-renown, world-respected church (if you’re referring to the LDS religion) is “surviving”. You’re not a survivor. You’re just a lil biatch. Also, cute how you tried to be cleaver with the whole “twisted relationship” comment, but you know what I meant—Josh and Lolly are in a backassward marriage because the guy likes peen up the pooper, and she’s basically a brainwashed cuckquean. Prolly like yourself. Because you’re a basic biatch.
You know, I could swear you’d said “I’m done with this blog.” Best troll of your whole slew of comments, apparently.
The constant antigay obsession with anal sex. It never fails. You have nothing else, just despite.
And anal sex.
Not an obsession; more of a “WTF” observation. Kinda like when you see a dog hump an inanimate object, but it’s a grown human. Kinda like wow, what a comical yet repulsive thing to observe something be so sexually debased. Like, to the extent of ruining a family. Like, to the extent of spreading disease. Like, to the extent of literally rubbing your junk on something contaminated with human waste. Like, to the extent of violating the sacred bonds of matrimony. Like, to the extent of scarring kids. So yeah, there’s a lot more to go on besides the fudgepacking. Lolz
There is nothing honorable in celebrating two people living a lie (to supposedly please their god). Secondly, even their older child knew that they shouldn’t remain married. So the idea that incompatible married couples should stay together for the children is very bad ideology. Children shouldn’t have to be raised by two miserable parents. That doesn’t benefit anyone.
Your fixation on certain sex acts is sad. You do know that women bleed and urinate from their *special place*, right? How exactly is putting your *thing* in there *less gross* than other types of sex? Sex, in general, is not an attractive thing to behold — if you’ve ever watched porn you’d know that.
So happy this Pepe character showed up. I desire all to see his comments and judge for themselves. Please hit CTRL-F and put in “Pepe” and be sure to read everything he’s posted here. BTW, “pepe” is a reference to a pro-Trump MEME. And I know this because I’m a Trump voter myself. But I’m also an ex-mormon, and one who’s not afraid of sex. So on the one hand I appreciate Pepe’s politically incorrect spirit of candor, but on the other hand I’m ashamed of him because he really makes conservatives look bad. We are not all hiding-in-the-closest homophobes that are insecurely obsessed with body parts.
At the same time though, his persona does a great job of demonstrating what so many men in the church are like. Men in the church are mostly kinda girly and feminized, but another part tends to consist of insecure types like Pepe who have a very difficult time reconciling their emasculation. The cognitive dissonance of voting for Trump and calling people “cucks” online while subconsciously knowing that you are effectively a cuck yourself as a neutered “man” in the Mormon church results in intense anger and lashing out at people online like this.
Enjoy.
Lol. Conspiracy theorist much? K now, on the real. Regardless of how much you all applaud this lunacy, it’s still lunacy at the end of the day. Facts don’t care about your feelings. This is all wrong. A man is abandoning his family, his wife and daughters, to pursue unchecked, unrestrained sodomy. You all fancy yourselves progressive and wiser than the counsel of God and the wisdom of generations. But you couldn’t be any further from the truth. This “man” you all celebrate like a bunch of autistic donkeys has been poisoned, and he’s poisoning his family in down in a very public manner just to win the approval of all of you meaningless clowns. Because he needs approval. Just look at all of the previous posts this guy has put up. He thrives on it. Because he’s wrong and he knows it in his twisted mind and corrupted heart. He threw a hole community under the bus in 2012 to gain celebrity. He put a bullseye on a generation of members of the LGBT community for fleating fame. And now he seeks to do the same, it with members of his church and good-intentioned people who want to and can make it work in a mixed-orientation marriage. His fake apologies aren’t going to bring back those who were targeted because of his previous stance. And I’m sure not going to shut up and let him do the same with all of the disgusting generalizations he’s making towards another community this time around. Weed is an opportunist. He’s scum. And you all are dumb enough to keep getting suckered in by this filthy douchebag. So keep it all up. It’s delusion and it’s flat out wrong. Pity for the family. Pity for the wife. Pity for the children. Pity for you all.
Pepe, you’re the gift that just keeps on giving. It’s endearing to see you drop in Ben Shapiro quotes like they’re your own words. The problem however is that you’re the one who’s basing arguments on “feelings” here, where are your supposed facts?
You shouldn’t make assumptions, Pepe.
Where have I celebrated Mr. Weed? It’s hard for me to be sympathetic about something he kind of did to himself. This outcome was predictable. I tend to agree that if he went into this knowing he was gay, which he did, then he probably should stick it out… at least until the kids are out of the house. But I’m also not so arrogant to pretend to know things that I don’t.
As a random third party observer he frankly doesn’t seem like someone that is mentally stable to me. The fact that he’s still affiliated with the church after all this is evidence of that. Talk about someone who has gone above and beyond to “test” the claims of the church. How much evidence does a man need before he has the mental strength to admit it’s not true? While I feel sorry for him, I also think he’s a combination of incredibly stupid and pathetically weak and therefor kind of deserves every bad thing that happens to him.
I agree with you that it’s a pity. And yes, in this case, I place a lot of that blame on Mr. Weed. But, Mrs. Weed too, she also agreed to go into this. She knew he was gay. Why does she get a pass? She shouldn’t.
You’re a delusional narcissist, Pepe, to act like the church isn’t ultimately responsible for this. And that’s the thing. You know it’s responsible, and that’s why you’re lashing out. Because it makes you culpable. You are party to this. With my own eyes, multiple times, having served in leadership and been a part of the discussions myself, I have witnessed gay men subjected to intense pressure to pretend to be straight and marry women and raise families.
And you know, Pepe, this phenomenon isn’t just about “mixed orientation” marriages, it’s also about mixed-faith marriages and other types of mispairings. So many people are setup for marriage failure in the LDS church because they are taught to marry for all the wrong reasons.
Again with the body part jokes, you are utterly obsessed with the mechanics of different types of sex. And yes, this tends to indicate something. Seriously, Pepe, what is wrong with you? This will be terribly uncomfortable for you to hear, but straight people are into anal sex too. It’s a thing.
Beside that though, your attitudes about what’s going on here are just wrong. You act as though Mr. Weed is doing this because of sex. That’s not what this is about. You thinking that makes me feel sorry for your wife. Apparently you just see her as a receptacle for your wee wee, the sum total of your relationship with her is “penis in vagina.” For most people, the sex is something that comes as a consequence of a relationship, human connection, emotional intimacy and all that. Go talk to a sex therapist, Pepe. You clearly need some sort of help.
Once again, a little crude for my taste, but once again, right on target. Only, what I see as an elephant in the room that everyone is pretending not to see, are how the unicorn post, and this one, might have been influenced by Josh and Lolly’s career interests, not only in counseling, but also in speaking and writing.
Also, I’m sorry you felt neutered by a church. But come on. Like move on. Projecting much?? Lol
Pepe, this is a little crude for my taste, but it looks right on target to me, as far as it goes. As far as I can see from what Josh and Lolly have said, under the conditions that Josh is imposing, unilaterally and dogmatically, I don’t see how Lolly could do any better than what she’s doing: agreeing to divorce, and try to see it in the best possible light.
What Josh is doing looks so stereotypically male to me …
Pepe, I’m wondering about your strategy and tactics here. I see you pointing out some of the most obvious truths about what’s happening here, but in such a rude and crude manner that it might repel even the most thoughtful and fair-minded people from even reading what you’re saying. Is there any method in your madness?
I will say that in spite of their rudeness and crudeness, your comments have been like an oasis in the desert for me.
Very sad… I feel sorry for Lolly and the kids. I’d encourage you to reevaluate your situation, and what YOUR beliefs are by the Bible, not a church or by trying to connect to a guy – even a husband.
Truth ☝🏼
Hi Leslie. Your intentions seem kind & heartfelt & I’m sure that’s well received. Referring to evaluating a situation by the Bible is too vague though. Josh has a bible & has read it I’m sure. Millions of people have read the bible & have interpreted its contents to mean basically whatever they want/ need it to mean. There are simpler principles, however, that exist in & out of the Bible that having a discussion about is worth having.
I’m sorry that Pepe L’italiano is running through this thread like a loose dog & confirming things that aren’t stated clearly.
Uh, they’re pretty clear. Not everyone applauds this sort of selfish behavior, pal. Stop being a lil biatch. The world isn’t all about your views. People disagree with this. Stop whining about folks having strongly opposing views.
But if folks have strong apposing views to yours then they’re little bitches right? Also, I wasn’t referring to Leslie’s sentiments & opinions that were clear- only that an appeal to the Bible is a very unclear thing that could yield a million different results. Please be kind and read things carefully before you respond with vitriol.
I got what you meant… Duh… The Bible is pretty clear, so take your liberal logic elsewhere lol… lil biatch…
Hi Pepe. You said that I’m a “lil’ biatch”, a “basic biatch”, and (most importantly) that I’m YOUR biatch 🙂 I am a man (as I’m guessing you are too) which makes this a very important coming out moment for you . . . & I respect that. Unfortunately I find that when people can’t maturely handle a conversation then they usually revert to intimidation tactics, shock words, side topics, meaningless surface statements, etc. etc. You might not have noticed but the majority of people on this thread are considerate & educated enough to recognize a bully who doesn’t have anything important to say. So as much as I’d love to keep making you say hilarious stuff I’ll respect the community & bow out . . . unless you beg me.
Oh look, the cult survivor is trying to twist my words to get all gay pervy on me. Cliche. “Look, someone is offending my gay sensibilities. I’ll make inappropriate suggestively sexual remarks towards them to get them to
back off because it’s the only self-defense mechanism I have going for me as a beta-male queer.” Lolololo. I understand that you want to be somebody’s biatch, but unfortunately you’re just a lonely biatch seeing that I never asked you to be mine. And no, a lot of people posting here aren’t cool with nor about this lifestyle. Good amount of people disagree with it, and all you virtue-signalers do is autistically yell “Bigot”, “Bully”, “Muh triggers” or in your case make super gay propositions. Hardly considerate or educated, no??
Pepe are you LDS?
No, I don’t do drugs lol
Just for the record Pepe, I’m also interested to know . . . are you a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints? All signs point to yes but your last answer to “cult survivor” indicated that your might be but avoided the question because you were ashamed. . .
Hello Mr. Pepe. The reply button doesn’t show after some of your comments so I’m replying here to your last statement which is: “I got what you meant… Duh… The Bible is pretty clear, so take your liberal logic elsewhere lol… lil biatch…”.
1. If you “got what I meant” then you wouldn’t go on to say that the “Bible is pretty clear”. Your reading comprehension is officially at Zero.
2. If the Bible is “pretty clear” then why are there thousands of different interpretations of the same book (even your own church teaches this)?
I predict that instead of answering the one question that you’ve been asked you resort to name calling, sarcasm, & indirect verbiage. No pressure, just curiously interested to see if you can pull off a single comment that doesn’t reek of uneducated hatred.
You are two brave, honest people. Thank you for this post. I remember reading your coming-out post and thinking “Here’s Phase One. That’s a good start. How long until Phase Two?” Your struggles, though painful, will help so many. I’m grateful for your refreshing honesty. What a gift you both are to the world.
Pepe, I’ll take that as a Yes.
Thank you for being so courageous, and so vulnerable in sharing this. It moved me to tears more than once. I wish you both full love and complete adoration, exactly the kind you hope for. Like a warm day where you bask in sunshine. ❤️🧡💛💚💙💜
Lolly and Josh:
Thanks for your heartfelt stories. You have made the best possible decisions, over time, according to how you understand life. I see promising futures for you both, and for your children.
As the world opens up to you, consider the damaging effects that future church sanctions might have upon your hearts and minds. Imagine starting over and living without the constraints of your current church structure. All religions claim a “god”, yet all religions are the result of men and women looking to explain the unknown. Many churches would welcome you and not shame you for living your best lives. In fact, religion is not even a requirement for paying homage to a a higher being.
Personally, I spent way too much of my life adhering to prescribed norms of a mainline Protestant church. I paid my dues, volunteered for offices, and helped out wherever possible. My turning point was watching a Pastor and fellow Elders join together in bashing gay people for wanting to marry each other. As a lifelong gay man, I realized I had no desire to be part of such an exclusionary social club. I can always find a way to pay homage to a higher being, but never again to the detriment of my self-worth.
Again, I wish you all the best and much happiness, success, and contentment in the future!
Those who choose to judge are putting themselves on a par with Christ. He is quoted as saying “Judge Not”. Mormons claim he taught judge not unrighteously so, those who choose to judge are claiming that they are as righteous as Christ and therefore qualified to judge. What a surprise they are in for.
Ha! (Fell asleep & lost my 1st draft..*sighs*..knew that would happen if I didn’t type fast, so I’ll type faster this time!)..Thank you for sharing you lives, joys, sorrows, thoughts, feelings, and perspectives, all so very honestly, and genuinely..*smiles*..
I had never heard of your story (Yes!, I live in a hermit cave), Regardless, i never heard of it prior to today, and my clicking on, what I believe what is called a, “Moment”, on Twitter, which brought me to your blog.
Having said that, I read a great deal of your post(s), remember my saying I fell asleep? Well, that was what prompted me to stop reading for the moment..*smiles*..it’s around 12:30am here (1:30am now I’m done typing), and the rain is again falling loudly enough for me to hear it constantly pityer patering on the roof, and in turn is making me sleepy..*yahoo rain*..since I have issues with sleep it is welcome…
Anyhow, I’ll read the rest later, but what I did want to do, before I end up falling asleep again, and pushing buttons on my phone that will again make my thoughts and words disappear, is to say…
Having never before been exposed to your story, once I began to read it…What initally came to my own mind was…
Wow!, How wonderful, and Utterly Terrible..*sighs*…Wonderful, that the bond between you is such that you would live and do as you have, and how utterly terrible…because, as you’ve discovered…You both deserve to Loved, and to Love, and especially, to Fall in Love..Crazy, Stupid, Heart Pounding, Intoxicatingly the Ambrosia of Insanity which is Loving someone outside of Yourself, yet feeling as if Your Souls are connected invisibly, irrevocably, and knowing in a Moment that other Person will Forever be in Your Heart, on Your Mind, and Part of Your Soul, even if You were to Never see or speak to each other again..(and I am not referring to Love at First Sight..*smiles*…But, Love at First Everything…at First Heartbeat that skips a beat…First Soul Leaping Kiss…First Touch of the Other’s Skin on Your Skin hand held..)….
Point is, when I read the initial beginning of Your posts, I knew then and there that your Divorce was an eventuality..*shrugs*, and I mean, no malice, no recrimination or condemnation or anything else negative…I knew your Divorce would be an eventuallity, because as close and supportive and loving as your mutual relationship may have been, ot was extremely unfair to you BOTH..*shrugs* ..Because, as I’ve stated and you have since learned, neither of you, were truly being yourselves..Josh, has every right to live and be the gay man he is…and Lolly, has every right to live and be the straight woman she is…and BOTH of YOU have every right in the Universe to “Love”, in all its complicated, confusing, wonderful, painful, amazing glory..*smiles*…Plus, People can only live so long putting up false fronts for others, before it completely drains them, or they break..as in the shatter…so, I am very Happy that Both of You have decided that You each are “worth it”…that You are Worth someone Loving Honestly “Who” you truly are..whatever that is for You as an individual..*smiles*… I also predict that by divorcing, and being honest, truly honest with each other..and opening up your own individual lives to finding Love, that your mutual relationship will grow yet still, and become even stronger, because you have each other, always, as friends, as support, as co-prarents…and moving forward as confidantes, and ports in a storm, as support, and encouragement when needed, as best friends, and greatest cheerleaders, and as a gentle drill sargents to push the other when needed, too…I believe what you are both feeling, and seeking, is completely natural and understandable…*smiles*…and I wish you BOTH, every success in finding Love..*smiles*..
I do intend to return and read the remainder of your story as it is today, but I’m even more excited about reading what the future holds for both and each of you…as I believe there will be some things and likely individuals, who are truly amazing..and I only hope that they are individually, as Amazing as the two of you have proven yourselves to be..Best of Luck ..and Warmest Regards to Each of You, and Your Beautiful Family…*smiles*…
Little Way Off-Topic (sort of)..Know something Funny? As in odd, not Ha!-Ha!…If You ask a Million People the same question, you’ll usually get a Million different answers…BUT, what I’ve noticed, when researchers ask someone who has had a near death, or death, experience, about what they saw, heard, felt…the one thing that seems to be repeated over and over again, consistently, is the fact that…”Love” is what it is all about..feeling it, experiencing it, giving it, sharing it, lifting up others with it, Letting others know that someone feels it for them..etc..Love is simply the Answer”…*smiles*..That odd bit of consistency, always seems to fill me with Hope..and it never ceases to remind me..to show Love to others..
P.S. Remember, No Matter What..
.. “It will be, Ok..”…*smiles*
I’m just so sad it took you this long to figure out what I knew from the first time I heard your story.
This is so insanely selfish. My mind is blown. Like I get you don’t want to be married anymore, but finish this out until your youngest is 18 and out of the house. It’s wrong to not treat the covenant you made with God as sacred. I don’t care about the gay part. My abhorrence with this has absolutely NOTHING with you being freaking gay. It has everything to do with breaking up a family (yeah right with the homestead part, I guarantee you that will never happen). This is happening at the expense of your kids so you can go off and live with your life of being romantically involved with a man. SO INSANELY SELFISH. Don’t give me the bull crap argument that “the kids won’t be happy and fulfilled if I’m not happy.” They will be more damaged and more broken come from a broken home like this. Yes, we all make mistakes but divorce isn’t the solution right at this moment. You can live your little fantasy later. I’m so appalled.
Olivia gets a all of the points 👏🏼 You’re 100% right—it’s freaking sad and pathetic. But this comment section is too filled with virtue-signalers that have their heads too far up theirs own SJW arses to see how screwed up the situation they’re celebrating on really is. It’s disgusting. Especially the homestead part. The guy wants to fudgepack and have his ex and kids be right there to witness it and cheer him on. How selfish can you get, man? Destroy your family because your urges are more important than the dignity and welfare of your family. Sure thing, bucko.
Pepe- while I agree with many of your points, I think the way you are speaking is hurtful. Your language is hurtful and may only help people who agree with Josh’s actions to feel justified. I think your points will be better served if presented in a more loving manner.
I shall repent… 🙏🏼
Well your not a homophobe at all are you? 🙄
A strange and funny part of this is seeing such banal, stereotypically male behavior being excused, and praised, as if it were on the leading edge of social justice activism. Like Richard Carrier’s “polyamory.”
“My abhorrence with this has absolutely NOTHING with you being freaking gay.”
Nobody believes this. Nobody. Lying is fun! Especially to ourselves!
I have absolutely no reason to lie about that 🤣 I could care less what his sexual preferences are. If he wants to divorce his wife later on in life and marry a man, I could care less. Someone stated this above but why is this totally not okay if he was heterosexual leaving her for another woman or for someone he found sexier, but since he is gay then it’s such a brave thing. Explain that to me.
Hi Olivia. There are people in this very thread who have said that their parents getting a divorce was the best thing that could have happened for everyone involved. Others have said that they wished their parents would have gotten a divorce instead of “finishing it out until their youngest was 18” so to speak. The truth is that divorce can be horrible or it can be the very best thing depending on so many circumstances.
You asked why this is different from a heterosexual leaving his wife for another woman & the answer is it’s not . . . if you don’t consider all the OTHER factors involved. You can’t paint this situation as black or white as though there’s only one thing going on here. Josh & Lolly refer to many reasons why they BOTH consider a divorce in their situation to be way more healthy at this point then a continuation thereof. They’re already in a “non-traditional” marriage so it might not be accurate to apply divorce statistics from a “traditional” marriage. Ask yourself: do children want two miserable / suicidal parents who are together or happy / fulfilled parents who are separated? You might prefer one scenario while others would differ- neither being wrong. Also, if it were always wrong 100% of the time for LDS members to break their “sacred” marriage covenant with God then the policies would not be as they are. I’ve known of numerous couples who have been encouraged by church leaders to get a divorce. Unfortunately as a woman you are not allowed access to all of the church handbooks / decision councils so it wouldn’t be easy for you to know how common it is.
Who are you?! You’re comments are amazing and I LOVE everything you post. Thanks for sharing all your thoughts! I really appreciate your level headedness.
Olivia is not a homophobe. Just because somebody disagrees with this guys choice of abandoning his wife and children for savage butt-loving doesn’t mean they’re a homophobe. They just disagree with the decision because maybe they value family over savage butt-loving. Geez. Judgey enough?? I’m so offended that you’d just label someone like that just because you don’t have an argument so you resort to name calling. Wooooooooow. So mean. Many rudes.
If being a gay man is savaage butt-loving, then being a straight man is savage vagina-loving. Putting your penis inside your wife’s vagina is still putting a penis inside a vagina.
Truer words were never spoken, Smith.
Uh that’s vags we’re made for… lol. Liberal logic. Vag loving over butt loving any day of the week, cuz. Lolololol
Kids are way worse off when raised by parents that should be divorced, than when they are raised by parents who are divorced but are both invested in their kids’ well-being. They should not prolong their extreme suffering to the point of suicidality and thus their children’s suffering, and risk that their children will lose one or both parents permanently.
I’ve now stayed up really late reading this entire post and most of the comments. My own parents were in a mixed-orientation marriage, which ended after about 20 years. My father has not found happiness leading a gay lifestyle. I realize his is only one story, but it is the story I know best. All of these comments regarding the LDS Church being toxic or hateful couldn’t be further from the truth. I am very active in the church and as such see the inner-workings of it, which is an organization of many incredible people who sacrifice hours each week in serving those around them. This is the work of Christ. The Spirit is here and is real. I know the leaders of the church are not self-serving but seek and DO God’s will.
I won’t pretend that a MOM is easy, but is ANY marriage easy? Every marriage takes work- LOTS of work and includes lots of heartbreak and struggle. The romantic and sexual passion dwindles and dies as a matter of course. It takes a lot of work to kindle and rekindle both, and they are of course interconnected. It’s incredibly natural for one to feel like the passion can only be found outside of one’s marriage when the “magic” has faded. This is true of heterosexual couples just as it is in a MOM. Should a man then leave his wife for someone who ignites his hormones and with whom the newness of love can be felt? Of course not. Why then is it acceptable if it is in the guise of being “authentic” to oneself? Isn’t the heterosexual man who seeks new sexual passion outside of his marriage being “authentic” to how he naturally feels?
There are many instances where a marriage can continue in joy and love while the sexual intimacy is lacking: One spouse is very ill and physical intimacy is impossible; One or both spouses gains much weight, loses hair, etc. and is no longer physically attractive to the other- maybe even at all; One spouse simply loses interest in sex over time. These are just a few scenarios. Should the couple give up and look elsewhere? Of course not! We wouldn’t expect them to. But they should love, forgive, serve, count blessings, etc., and the love can continue, even deeply. Why then is it any different if one of the couple is attracted to the opposite sex? Why is this somehow the socially-accepted exception for forsaking one’s spouse?
I am not ignorant of the struggles and challenges of someone who experiences same-sex attraction and yet chooses to abstain from homosexual behavior. I have read and studied much, wondered and doubted even, cried and suffered inside as I’ve tried to understand the intricacies to it all. Yet I believe just because someone naturally feels gay does not consign them to one path only. They can choose. It will be a challenge. Openness and honesty is important. Good relationships with people of the same sex is important (it’s not all about sex!). Belief in the limitless love of our Heavenly Father is vital. This post and much of society teaching that anyone who feels gay MUST follow that path is harmful. There are many people who have chosen a different path successfully, (as evidenced by several shared above) and it is unfair to discount their stories.
Whatever our beliefs, and clearly they differ greatly, let us be respectful and kind. Josh and Lolly have put their story out their for the world, and as such are making a statement and quite a few judgements. Because it is a public statement, it is our right and duty to make a judgement of our own. Not against Josh and Lolly as people- their path is their own, but against what they are preaching to the world. I know God has spoken through His prophets and apostles and recommend Elder Oaks’ October 2017 conference talk on the Proclamation to the World to everyone: https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2017/10/the-plan-and-the-proclamation?lang=eng
You do realize that your father was probably miserable for 20 years, right? …and there is no such thing as a “gay lifestyle”. As a properly married gay man (married to another man), my “lifestyle” includes walking our dogs, doing grocery shopping, and occasionally going out to dinner. How salacious!
Very respectful response I can agree with 100%. Thank you for putting my thoughts into words, “brother”.
Yes!!! This!!!👇🏽 Thank you!
No one should be patting him on the back for leaving his marriage, whatever the reason!
“ Should a man then leave his wife for someone who ignites his hormones and with whom the newness of love can be felt? Of course not. Why then is it acceptable if it is in the guise of being “authentic” to oneself? Isn’t the heterosexual man who seeks new sexual passion outside of his marriage being “authentic” to how he naturally feels?”
No. Entirely different. Josh never felt a romantic blush of first love. NEVER. Can you comprehend never feeling that? It’s not about the ‘newness’, it’s about how empty your soul would feel if you knew you would never have the romantic connection of deeply connected love – don’t make it all about sex. Re-read the article if you think it’s just about sex. Would you like to be married to your best friend who you weren’t really attracted to, and stay with them forever?
Cynthia, you can’t honestly think of any “reason” why getting a divorce could actually be better than staying married? “Whatever the reason”? Really? Speaking of reasons, if your classroom assignment was to find all of Josh’s & Lolly’s & all you could find were the three you mentioned above you’d have to re-take the class. As long as you envision a false/ limited scenario then you will remain confused as to why the majority of people are supporting Josh & Lolly’s mutual decision to seek what’s best for their entire family.
Hi brother. Thank you for sharing your thoughts & story- I definitely feel your kindness & humility. I just wanted to throw out a thought for consideration in case it’s new to you; The LDS church teaches (in various ways) that it is either 100% true or 100% false. They never want their members to consider the third option which is that it could be partially true & partially false. This explains why so many people can honestly find the toxic/ hateful parts while many others can find the Spirit of love & service. I found both.
Realizing that the Church is both good & bad releases you from that lifelong inner struggle of trying to accept & rationalize the bad things. Like you, I was completely familiar with the church’s inner workings (& I was one of the best missionaries they’ve ever had). But at the end of the day I realized that there were three basic categories that the church could be divided into: 1. The overwhelming goodness of the people themselves (who the church admits is separate from “the church”). 2. The Gospel of Christ (which many people have spiritual experiences with/ about) & 3. Everything else (which is all the stuff added to the Gospel in order to make a church that’s “different” a.k.a. “special” a.k.a. “better” a.k.a. “the best” a.k.a. “God’s only true church” etc. etc.) But the truth is that Good people are found all over the earth (so the church can’t claim superiority there) & the Gospel is found all over the earth outside of the LDS church (because pure love is a universal concept & having a “pure heart & mind” is something anyone has the ability to achieve in or out of any religion). The last thing the LDS church could ever let you realize is that you can have pure, unfiltered access to all the joy & blessings of God without them.
Like a Nursing home that’s understaffed, they rely on the good hearts of the employees (members) to ignore or make up for the organizational shortcomings & inadequacies. There are so many things in the LDS church that go against the simple decency of the Spirit of Christ & every Mormon dreads those frustrating conversations where they have to try and defend the church’s bizarre mistakes. But ,at the same time, how awesome is it for the LDS church that they can hide in their buildings & say harmful things knowing that they have an army of loyal members who will fight their battles for them (racial discrimination, sexism, polygamy, decades of sexual mis-understanding, etc.)? Honestly it’s not fair to you or anyone else in your church that you’re forced into these super awkward positions where you have to choose between being a normal, loving neighbor & risk losing your salvation judge others in a way that you know in your heart is wrong but you get to go to heaven.
Thank you for telling your story. I hope it becomes very well known, so that others can learn from it. The love you two share is inspiring both during marraige and the decision to end it.
I am active lds and look forward to our leaders seeking inspiration on this subject. Mistakes are made by man, not by God. Perhaps God is waiting for the world to be more compassionate so all can experience the equality Gods children are meant to feel. I anxiously wait for that day when the gospel is complete
I remember reading your story many years ago. I followed you both for a bit, then forgot about you. I remember reading your story with great pain. I do not relish in your pain or your situation, that is extremely cruel. Instead, I truly wish you both the absolute best in life. I am sorry for any suffering you may endure. I am truly happy for both of you, and I wish you the best.
Warm Regards
Josh P
I remember reading your story many years ago. I followed you both for a bit, then forgot about you. I remember reading your story with great pain. I do not relish in your pain or your situation, that is extremely cruel. Instead, I truly wish you both the absolute best in life. I am sorry for any suffering you may endure. I am truly happy for both of you, and I wish you the best.
I don’t know why there are some on here that feel the need to leave nasty comments. Go do something better with your time.
Warm Regards
Josh P
“We talked about how Heavenly Father asked me and Josh to get married and now he is asking us to take this next step”
Nope, you’re still messing up. Apologise and cry and blog all you want, but you’re still deluding yourselves: you address symptoms and think you’re all clever and enlightened for it, but you still refuse to see or address the actual root cause of the problem.
“We’re sorry, so incredibly sorry, for the ways our post has been used to bully others”
Grand. Now let’s try an experiment: go fetch a priceless, unique thing. A vase or a piece of pottery or crystal, something like that. Go out in the street and throw it to the ground. Now apologise just like that; say you’re “sorry, so incredibly sorry”. It’s inexplicable, but you’ll notice the vase doesn’t unshatter.
Nevertheless, I believe you when you say you’re sorry. Now what about all those people who paid you money, Josh, for you to, ah, “help them combat patterns and beliefs that cause feelings of shame, hopelessness and despair; those with sexual identity issues and unwanted sexual attractions and/or behaviors […] particularly youth, helping them feel hope as they face many life challenges”? Oh, you say realise now that homophobia (even the kind that comes from religion!) kills people, eh? Well, congratulations! Also rouge is called “blush” now, and the Dodgers moved to Los Angeles—since we’re pretending old news is new. Here, have a slow clap for your little revelation, and now tell us about the many times you told gay kids they’re fine and good and lovable and loved just the way they are, and there’s nothing the matter with them, and they aren’t broken straight people, and all that lovely other stuff you think you just figured out about yourself. Oh, wait, you can’t. Because you didn’t. And that makes you complicit in their misery and death. Go on, let’s see you blog your way out of that. Have you even bothered to consider how much money you took in exchange for using your clients to legitimise your own life of lies? How much money was it, Mr. Weed? How many meals, how many house and car payments, how much clothing?
“Our hearts broke as we learned of the ways our story was used a battering ram by fearful, uninformed parents and loved ones”
Because yeah, gosh, mister “therapist”, who could have predicted such a thing? Aside from, um, anyone with two functioning brain cells.
“One person wrote—and I’ll never get the horror of this out of my head for the rest of my life—saying that he went to see his family for Thanksgiving during his second year of college, where he was an out gay man who openly had a boyfriend. When he got home, his father pulled up our story on the computer and then physically assaulted him, beating him as he had often done during his childhood, saying ‘if this guy could avoid being a faggot, so could you!'”
»tsk« Oh, dear; yours is a hard row to hoe, what with never being able to get the horror of that out of your head for the rest of your life. It’s almost as though your selfgratulatory attempt at self-delusion has real, actual consequences or something!
“I have had to eat a lot of crow in these last four months.”
Crows are awesome; you’re unworthy to speak of them, for you bought your comfort and fake superiority with other people’s misery and death.
“Some of these things I said or did were on camera in front of millions of people. There is no taking that kind of thing back. I take comfort in the fact that those uncomfortable doses of denial can now be refuted and put to bed.”
See! You’re still doing exactly what you claim to have understood is wrong. Your first sentence here is directly contradicted by the second (and subsequent ones wherein you babble about faith and your beloved Mormon church, et cetera). You deserve no comfort or joy. You deserve to be haunted forever, night and day, by the horrors you have visited on real, actual other people in the name of your make-believe sky-daddy.
Now take your ridiculous fortune-teller’s fairytale about a homestead (I see you’ve gone ahead and bought one; funny, wasn’t your imaginary friend supposed to provide it? Where’d that money come from, Mr. Weed?), close your mouth, and go slink away under a rock somewhere. You deserve neither absolution nor forgiveness, only shame and nightmares.
Lol savage
He did not practice reparative therapy. He did say all those true, positive, and accurate things to those children, youth and adults.
I know him, I know his stance on all of those things. Did you even read the post? I am doubting it with your response.
Reparative therapy is abuse, of the highest degree, and I can promise he had always been against it and has never practiced it.
He is human, he made mistakes, he apologized, but not for the things you are accusing him off.
It looks as if Josh is attempting to make amends and ask for forgiveness. Thank goodness most people are not mired in their own anger as deeply as you are and will be able to see that he’s a good guy doing the best that he can.
Hi Daniel. Before you pop a blood vessel let me submit a couple things that will help. First, Consider a child soldier in Sudan who was kidnapped & brainwashed to think that harmful decisions affecting himself or others were actually good & approved of. This child grows up to perpetuate this diabolical thinking onto other child soldiers & many are hurt in the process. Now consider that this person reaches a point of mental maturity where they can finally start to undo the decades of brainwashing & realize that what they’ve done is wrong & not who they feel they truly are. This person will now be realizing many things that are to you (Mr. Daniel) obvious & “old news”.
You’re trying to put all the blame & horror on Josh for doing exactly what his church approved of & encouraged. All of his decisions were directly guided by the LDS church! If you can’t see that Josh is a victim just as much as anyone the church influenced through him then you’re not seeing the bigger picture here. The only difference is that Josh has the decency to apologize & change course which is something the LDS church will never do unless their hand is forced (as in past times with other “doctrine”). Your “vase” analogy is great except you’re failing to realize that Josh is himself a vase that the church not only threw on the ground, but continually stepped on the prevent it from ever realizing that it was not broken to begin with.
You talk of Josh’s income as if he pre-meditatively went into his marriage knowing it was a scam that he could earn a couple bucks from. I see you’re an auto mechanic (of sorts) from your profile- what does the average auto mechanic do if someone gives them money to fix their car (both believing it can be done) & after days of trying their car still has problems? Do the mechanics have nightmares & slink under a rock (like you want Josh to do) for accepting someones money?
You say that Josh contradicts himself in this phrase: “Some of these things I said or did were on camera in front of millions of people. There is no taking that kind of thing back. I take comfort in the fact that those uncomfortable doses of denial can now be refuted and put to bed.” I just re-read the entire paragraph (that this was taken from) & Josh is clearly talking about two different things. The former are things he’s publicly announced & cannot retrieve while the later are things dealing with self-denial that he can now recognize, address, & correct. In other words “I did some things that can’t be fixed but I take comfort in knowing that there are at least some other things that I can fix”.
You go out of your way to say a lot of things that Josh “deserves” (shame, nightmares, hauntings, etc.) & doesn’t deserve (forgiveness, comfort, joy, etc.). All I can say is I would have hated to have been your kid and made any kind of mistake.
Lastly, you try to make fun of Josh by sarcastically saying that you thought Josh’s [God] was supposed to provide a homestead without Josh buying it. Usually this wouldn’t be a big deal because it’s obvious that you’re unfamiliar with LDS doctrine; only in this case, it shows your willingness to walk into a comment thread like Professor Dumbass & angrily teach everyone a really big lesson . . . when you literally have no idea what you’re even talking about.
Even though you came in here as offensively accusatory as possible I’ve tried my very best to explain things to you in a way that could help you think a little more with your mind & less with your fists.
An auto mechanic I am not—nor have I ever been. The rest of your guesses are similar in veracity, so–good day to you.
Well, aren’t you just a nice, little, hate-filled full-stop in evolutionary progress? Life is an evolution, no one comes fully-developed, nor is there such a thing. I hope you can realize that you are also subject to such a process; if you’re not, you epitomize the definition of “damned” and will persist in the pain you currently carry, which you just vomited out on someone who is very obviously not damned.
So, I had never heard of your family before I came across this post. But this post is incredibly beautiful and brave. It’s one thing to realise and admit to yourself that you had been mistaken in some of your core ideas relating to your own identity, but it’s another thing to tell the world, and you have my utmost respect.
Your post really made me think about some things, largely because I’ve spent over a decade trying to figure out my own LGBT identity. One of the core problems with American society and culture is that we act like sexuality and romantic attraction are always intrinsically linked. You yourself in this post equate the two. But what made your marriage feel hollow wasn’t that you’re homosexual, but that you’re homoromantic, and both you and Lolly want and need a marriage based on romantic love.
I don’t believe that every marriage has to be based on romantic love, I think that in it’s purest form marriage is about a lifelong partnership and the basis of that doesn’t need to be romantic. But both you and Lolly needed the basis of your marriage to be romantic and the realisation and acceptance of that disconnect is what brought you to where you are.
The reason I brought up the sexual romantic divide is because of my own experience. I have fallen in love, gone on dates, live to kiss and cuddle and spend time with the people I love, but I have never felt or desired to have sex with them. I experience romantic attraction, but Am almost entirely asexual. And it’s taken me a while to come to terms with that because our society has always told me that if I love someone romantically, then I should want to have sex with them. And I don’t. I don’t rule out that I might one day, but as I am now, I don’t. And I went through a period much like you where I felt like there was something wrong with me, but I came to much the same realisation as you.
My faith and beliefs can not allow me to tell myself that God made me broken. That God made me as I was meant to be, and that means there is nothing wrong with me. Just like there is nothing wrong with you and your beautiful family.
I’m very happy for you and Lolly, I’m glad that you were able to communicate and realise why neither of you felt truly satisfied in your marriage. I wish you all the best in the future.
This is so beautiful, thank you for sharing. Great points.
This was incredibly moving to read. Your 15 year journey will doubtless bear untold good fruit via your witness and faith, expressed here. This has obviously been a long, and at times painful road for you, but so many people will be blessed through your story. Thank you for your honesty, and thank you too for your apology for how the first part of your story was weaponized against religious LGBT people. I appreciate it. The vision of your future is so beautiful, and I pray God’s blessing on it.
Love is not self indulging, it does not boast nor is it selfish. Love puts others ahead of itself especially a love between a husband and wife. If he cannot love his own wife how can he love others. All reasoning becomes just an excuse to escape his own predicament!
Yep. So true
Hi Keli. Love is many things & multifaceted (not to mention the many different kinds of love) & you only named a few of those things. If love is not selfish, then is it fair to say that Lolly loves Josh so much that she is unselfishly helping him be true to himself even if it means altering their family dynamic? And that Josh loves Lolly so much as to not make her suffer through a romantic-less marriage that is slowly harming both of them? This sounds like an extremely deep love to me. If you’ve ever had to force yourself to be who you’re not because you might lose someones love if you didn’t, then you can understand how lucky Josh & Lolly are to share a love that transcends forced compliance & conditional love. Also, to say he cannot love his wife is referring a weird standard of love I’ve never heard of before- everything they wrote about screams how much they love each other. If you’re referring to romantic love then it’s also not hard to imagine how anyone can easily share romantic love with some but not others (you yourself probably have a sexual preference that makes it easier for you to romantically love a certain profile over other profiles). Further, it’s true that Josh & Lolly are in a “predicament” & that reasoning is a valid part of the educational process of learning how to obtain the best case scenario (which probably everyone is trying to do throughout their lives) but you’re not in a position to know if they’re “excuses” or not.
These two definitely feel a great deal of love for one another. Their problem is that they love each other like siblings, not like lovers, and that is the most he can offer her, and that is not enough for either of them to be happy.
Sending much love.
Josh. While reading your long apology I was getting more angry as I read. You should spend the rest of your days on earth apologizing for the damage you created! If you had married in private I would not have a problem but your very public announcement gives fuel to all the abuse taking place with reparative therapies! Giving false hope to change something that does not need to be changed!
I am very angry at you!
Mercy. Grace.
I, for one, am more than willing to forgive him.
Divorce is your happy ending! This is beautiful and I wish your family happiness as it continues to grow. Love is complex and different for each relationship. Don’t let anyone define your relationship by their rules.
Just a big THANK YOU! You are part of the healing of something that needs to heal! A shift in human consciousness that will bring peace and love to more and more people. Your entire journey and your sharing it so openly is such a GIFT! THANK YOU & I wish you both (&your kiddos) profound JOY & happy lives!!! You all have worked so hard! You deserve it! I believe the greatest gift we can bring to our lives and the greatest example we can so our children is to find Joy and be Joy-full! This is how we generate more joy upon this planet! Man (&Woman) is that he might have JOY! Our purpose! JOY! Best wishes for you all!
I just want you to know how much your Club Unicorn post changed my outlook. I simply hadn’t realized the truth about the natural element in being homosexual. This post, too, has given me much to think over. I appreciate your openness and honesty more than I can say.
I’m straight, cisgender, roughly the same age as Josh and Lolly, and was raised in an Orthodox Mormon family. I was taught a lot of things about homosexuality (among other topics) that were just plain wrong and that fostered a bigotry, a simple-mindedness, and a judgmental attitude in me that I now deeply, deeply regret. It pains me to see so many angry comments from Mormons who were given the same brainwashing I was given. Not too many years ago, I might have joined them in criticizing Josh and Lolly’s decisions here.
It takes a lot of courage to change one’s mind about ideas one once held as fundamental. I admire the bravery and thoughtfulness with which you’ve approached this situation. Best of luck to you both as you embark on this next chapter of your lives.
I have a son that I want to be “happy” ….after reading this Iam torn now …. thankyou for sharing your soul honesty!
Hi Mother of Many. In your short words I find my heart going out to you & crying for the hard decisions you feel are before you. If it helps at all, I decided a long time ago for myself that people are more important than things & if the two ever came into conflict then I would always choose a human over a non-human. This can be very difficult for those who think that their church isn’t a thing but that it is actually . . . a person. My own parents chose their church over me & our relationship has forever been damaged because I’m still an incredibly productive, kind, Christ-like, salt of the earth kind of guy but . . . I’m no longer who their church says I’m supposed to be. It’s honestly devastating to have to choose between being myself & the FULL love & acceptance of my parents (not the kind of love that looks at you with hurt eyes but the kind that is full of joy for your very existence). I know that many in your situation are in a difficult quandary that they never saw coming but I truly hope that your decisions will result in as much happiness for you & your son as possible. To add an extra twist, I’m a straight person whose only crime is following Christ in a different way the church prescribes.
Josh and Lolly,
I am so grateful to your family for blogging about your experiences. This whole life is a complex journey of discovery of ourselves and of others, not to mention all of the beauty and tragedy that surround us.
There is one thing that I would like to request for future posts.
You wrote that a happy, sustainable marriage between a man and a woman, where one of them is gay is like the unicorn you identified as in your family’s coming out post – it doesn’t exist.
As the gay member of a marriage between a man and a woman, I think it really depends on your goals in that marriage and also the type of support that you have in and around that union.
My request is that you avoid using absolutes (ie. “Gay people and straight people cannot attach to one another”) and also kindly express that your experiences are your own, though there may be some things that apply to others.
Thank you for sharing such deep thoughts.
I admire your family and I support the decisions that you make together, as you seek to do what is best for your whole family, (which includes the two of you, your four girls, and, as therapists, I’m sure you even briefly considered all of the strangers that would be affected).
Just as marriage was not the beginning of the conversation, divorce is not the end of it.
This ^ — recently made a comment myself about the use of superlatives and “absolutes.”
Thanks for that comment and support for the same, Mary.
Josh and Lolly, I’m sorry. I knew this day would come and I was one of those who wished you’d never posted about being a happy, healthy mixed orientation marriage. I appreciated your honesty and hoped for the best for you, but I knew that wasn’t the path for most, and had the potential to cause much pain and suffering especially in Mormondom.
Yet here it is, the day has come, and I’m sorry for both of you and your children. You are lucky to have such love and friendship in your life, you are lucky to finally “see” and heal, to be who you are and find your own unique path. It’s not going to be easy. I know many will turn away from you not wanting to see or understand, they preferred that picture perfect family, and not the truth that was in the eyes all along.
I am one who believes in honesty, truth, in people living their lives and doing their best to find what that means. I am a Mormon too, I am a mother of a gay son who found a wonderful man to love, and I struggle mightily to figure out how to stay in a faith, with well meaning wonderful people, who refuse to see another picture outside the perfect narrative they’ve been told. I want you to know that I know God loves you, you have learned some hard lessons and are the better for it. Thank you for sharing your truth, both you and Lolly have been brave, and I think you’ve done some good too.
So brave of both of you to share your honest, heart wrenching truth. Thank you for the courage it takes to admit your human failings and loving each other so unconditionally out loud; It gives others validation to follow their hearts, regardless of others’ opinions, too. The truth is the only thing that can do no harm. Bless your little family on your journey through this complicated, messy, wonderful life ❤️
Thank you, thank you, thank you for your bravery, faith, and inspiration. I’m an LGBT ally and I needed this to strengthen my own faith exactly at this time. The missionary that taught me came out 2 years ago with almost the exact same story as you. When he finally told me, I received a sweet and peaceful confirmation that this was good and right in God’s eyes. Ironically, he was the one who had taught me how to recognize that whispering in the first place. I support you a million percent in all you do. I pray daily for a reconciliation with the first presidency and Heavenly Father on this issue one day. I know it will come.
Thank you for being vulnerable to share your heart. It was very enlightening and taught me many new things. Much love to you and your family.
Mr. Josh and Miss. Lolly – I wish you all the best. You both deserve happiness and true love; I hope and know you will find it! I remember reading your original ‘out’ article and shook my head. I know elderly couples where one partner is gay but refuses to come out but had no problem cheating on the spouse throughout the marriage. When the ‘secret lover’ died, the gay spouse took the straight spouse to the funeral of the ‘good’ friend. Gotta keep up appearances! As a result of this marriage farce, the straight spouse has an unhealthy relationship with the adult children. Your girls will not experience this. They will know that honesty is nothing to be ashamed of. They will love their parents for coming together to create them, and love their parents for being true to themselves for the sake of their (the girls) future.
As a teenager I came out as a lesbian. I was told repeatedly that it was just a phase till I actually believed it myself.
About two years ago, I left my husband of 13 years. I actually left for reasons unrelated to my lesbianism. I was prepared to suppress my feelings for the rest of my life.
A little over a year ago I started dating my current girlfriend. It feels so right, and I have always been a supporter of gay rights. Yet I still struggle with feelings of guilt and shame.
Though I am not LDS, much of your journey is common to people from a variety of backgrounds in the LGBT community. This post puts into words many of the same things I have been struggling with.
I wish you peace at this crossroads of this continuing journey, and know you don’t travel it alone.
Interesting read. Just a question…so if Josh spent the last 15 years attracted to other women or another woman other than Lolly…would you be doing the same thing? I am a straight person…admitting I just don’t get it. I am trying though..
Hi Rosemary. If your analogy was perfectly aligned with Josh & Lollies situation then I think most people would agree that it wouldn’t seem right or healthy. But a better analogy is to ask if Lolly was attracted to other woman for her whole life, was completely un-attracted to her own husband, they both suffered extreme pain from this ongoing realization to the extent of suicidal thoughts with no hope in sight, they BOTH realized that they’ve been lied to & influenced by an organization with sick opinions, & they BOTH mutually came to the same conclusion that for the mental & emotional health of everyone involved it would be better (& possibly life saving) to re-arrange the legal paperwork referring to their relationship. It makes a lot more sense when the analogy considers more real time factors instead of boiling it down to one factor that isn’t even the main one.
This is not the work of God. This is the doings of satan. He has a hold over your life Josh. God did not MAKE you gay, nor does he create a pedofile, a murderer etc. You are making a huge mistake and I’ll say it right now, you will never be truly happy. Christ is what brings joy to our lives and you don’t have him.
I’ll be praying for you.
Don’t bother replying, I will not be responding
Lover of christ (so you think). Your words show that you have a strong willed, inability to consider any viewpoint / scenario / possibility / etc. other than the one forced into your brain from a lifetime of devout church attendance. It’s shocking how confidently you can speak as though you know EXACTLY what God, Satan, & Christ are thinking and doing with the intricacies of another human being. I think everyone here has had to interact with someone as stubborn as you in the workplace & can relate to how draining & annoying it is to have to accommodate your small mindedness in order to accomplish anything. On the other hand, you are a PERFECT soldier for your church. I hope you make a lot of money so they can continue to drain you for every penny.
Thank you for sharing something so deeply personal, I’m sure it will help others come to love and accept themselves. I wish you and your family all the best.
Mad props to you for being willing to ask yourself such tough questions and face the answers. You are very lucky being able to have a homestead where you can all stay together. (And to have such a good family!)
Our stories are so very similar. I did not know my husband was gay when I married him 15 1/2 years ago, but we have known each other our whole lives. He came out in September. We have been struggling with moving our relationship from husband and wife to friends even though we were friends long before we got romantically involved. It has been a struggle for me to watch him go out on dates. The thought of the man I love finding love with someone else was so hard for me. But as I was reading your post, there was a fundamental shift in the core of my being. You talking about needing that hope for a romantic connection with someone who shares your orientation made me realize how selfish I had been. I thought this was all about sex and I wanted to keep our connection for us. I now realize that we didn’t have the connection I thought we did and that expecting him to honor that connection was just selfish. I cried, and cried, and cried some more and then I sat down with him and I told him that I owed him a huge apology. I read him your words and I told him how I felt about my selfishness and how I think this was my roadblock to being able to be truly happy for him to find someone with whom he can fully connect. I told him that we both deserved that and that neither of us have ever experienced that. We held each other and we cried. Then something miraculous happened. He was able to open up to me in a way he had never been able to. I truly think that your post saved our friendship. I think if it had come any earlier, I wouldn’t have been ready to hear the words and allow them to change me. If it had come much later, there may not have been a friendship left to save. So from the bottom of my heart, I say, thank you. Thank you for sharing your truth. Thank you for allowing us to see your struggles. By allowing us that, you may have given our children the greatest gift. Having parents who can stay friends and be there for one another through anything. Because if we can make it through this, we can make it through anything!
Thank you so much for your post. It really hit home for me.
I’ve been married to my wife for more than 40 years and she’s known about my being gay the entire time. I have to admit part of the reason I got married was because I felt it was what was expected of me. At the time I lived in Fresno, California and I hadn’t seen any gay presence there… but then I probably lived a very sheltered life. Essentially it meant I really hadn’t seen any other option for myself.
I was Catholic and I had even studied to be a Christian Brother for three years. Kay was Mormon and had introduced me to the church by taking me to meetings. I told her if we got married I would investigate the church, not expecting to ever convert, but the messages from the missionaries were compelling and I became a member a few months later.
I also know we’ve had some rough times because Kay had been previously married, in a relationship where she was mistreated. A number of times during our marriage she told me she could go without ever having sex again. And about five years ago I decided to go along with that. It was at a time when I was finally starting to explore the possibilities of fully understanding about being gay.
I should mention we have two grown children in their mid-thirties.
For the longest time I was just mad at God for making me gay and I really didn’t understand until just a few years ago that being gay is part of Heavenly Father’s plan. He created me this way … and God loves all his children just the way he made us.
I also feel very strongly that there will all type of families in the Celestial Kingdom, not just heterosexual couples. Even the Law of Chastity in the Endowment sessions doesn’t specify sex is only to between a man and a woman. And they haven’t changed the wording to accommodate it being otherwise.
As in your case I too have never really felt the deep kind of love with my wife. I definitely love her and care for her. Even though there have been a number of times Kay has suggested we get divorced, I feel as if that would be deserting her since she’s handicapped, having had two strokes. After the last one she was told she could no longer drive a car.
For quite some time I had been praying to be able find a “gay best friend”, something the church does very little to promote, but I felt deeply it was what I needed to help feel complete. And I received what I had prayed for … and it was very miraculous all the things that occurred in order for that to happen.
Because the church doesn’t help in finding gay best friends, I had resorted to using gay dating web sites for quite some time. But after my sincere prayers to find that someone special, I did… and he wasn’t what I expected at all. First of all he’s from South America and had just arrived for a one-month visit to the United States. We hit it off immediately and have become the closest of friends over the past two months. Even his having to return to his home almost a month ago hasn’t decreased our affection for one another. Using the WhatsApp app we’re able to chat every day, learning more about each other. This friendship is quickly growing into a type of deep love I’ve never experienced before.
I don’t know how this will end. Again, I feel like I would be abandoning Kay if we got divorced, but on the other hand I would definitely consider marrying my gay best friend.
I especially liked your explanation of homestead since I feel that’s what I need too… to still be a part of my family and having it extended with my gay best friend.
I think you’ve kind of all ready abandoned your wife. You are having an emotional affair.
I’m so sad to learn that you both got lost in “the mists of darkness.” This post is 100% pure, self-centered sophistry. I pray God will bless and comfort you both and help you to someday return to ”True doctrine.” As Pres. Packer once said, “True doctrine, understood, changes attitudes and behavior. The study of the doctrines of the gospel will improve behavior quicker than a study of behavior will improve behavior. Preoccupation with unworthy behavior can lead to unworthy behavior. That is why we stress so forcefully the study of the doctrines of the gospel.” I pray someday you come back!!!
Hello IamAChildofGod. You’re referencing things that can apply just as easily to yourself. For example, the “mists of darkness” could be the words of scripture mingled with the philosophies of the LDS church. The quote by Pres. Packer takes on a whole new meaning when you consider that the “True Doctrine” is not what the LDS church teaches, but rather a doctrine of Christlike love & equal non-judgement for other people who are different than you. A study of that doctrine will indeed improve your behavior to those with different sexual identities & reduce your preoccupation of unworthily condemning as though you were God Himself. The church is notorious for saying things (like Packer’s quote) that sound important but can’t actually be pinned down- this helps give members the illusion that there’s a “deeper meaning” that they are currently not smart enough / worthy enough to decipher.
I grew up in the same town as you. We had the same seminary teacher and you went to high school with my older brother. Thank you for having the bravery to come forward with this, and not just fade into the background. I have been more troubled by your original post about this for the past five years than I realized. Your original story filled me with unspeakable horror, because I knew how it would get used, because I knew that relatives of mine would use it to diminish my own experiences as a gay ex-Mormon. I knew how your words would get twisted into inhumane actions against LGBT Mormons. You have done a good and decent thing here. No one forced you to tell the truth to the world. It is actions like this that go a long way toward making the world a better place for everyone. Thank you.
I’m heartbroken, sick…. why does there have to be such emphasis on sexual orientation? That is just one part out of hundreds of every persons being. Yes, God made you an aberration, embrace it, it’s beautiful but don’t make it your complete focus! I wish more couples had the friendship and love you guys have!! Romantic attachment?! Screw that when you have 4 kids!! This is selfish and good luck finding something more finding some fantasy more fulfilling life as your kids look on.
Wow. Judge much? Have you been denied your basic sexuality because of your church’s rules? No? Then you have no room to speak. No ability to truly compare.
Everyone has the right to emphasize the part of their life that they feel is necessary. I didn’t get that the decision they made is selfish. It is beautiful in its authenticity. Their kids are down with it. Perhaps there are other options you might consider than the nuclear family staying together forever for the sake of the children. Do you know how many unhappy marriages and unhappy children that has created?
Life is short. I wish them happiness.
I find it fascinating the number of comments from people in straight marriages saying, “Yeah well marriage isn’t about romance or sex. But we stay together.” Okay good for you, I guess? Why are you insiting someone remain unhappy, because you are in an unhappy marriage? I’m in a fulfilling marriage with my husband, and I wouldn’t say thats rare. It’s not always perfect, but we love each other. Sexually. Romantically. And we have a great friendship. When I read both Josh and Lolly’s words, I felt sorry for them. Instead of rushing to discount their experience and insist unhappy marriages are normal so they should just settle…maybe we could allow them to pursue their own happiness? Clearly, they were not happy in their marriage.
Wow! How awfully brave of the two of you. So happy to know you both still love each other and only want what’s best for each other and your family. I wish you all the best and a lifetime of happiness
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_and_The_Church_of_Jesus_Christ_of_Latter-day_Saints
Josh, My Heart goes out to your wife and children. To you as well however I am an Alcoholic and I view your Weakness as I do My Alcoholizm. .. It’s a addition and a Weakness. I’m so sorry you chose not to turn your Weakness into Strength. I sincerely believe as you get older you will indeed feel the sadness of your Heavenly Father for your choices in life. Having stated that I was an alcoholic, I must state this as well. I would never sit at a Bar night after night and expect to never take another Drink. It seemed you two emerged yourselves in the exact place of your Weakness’. I can’t understand why except perhaps your wife didn’t know what else to do and she was trying to save her marriage and family thinking perhaps you would wake up from all the fog. .. I can’t imagine the severe impact this has made on your children. My brother is gay and our nephew is as well. So I’m far from homophobic. I love them dearly however I am saddened by their choices. .. They have the right to choose in this life. It comes from a Loving Father’s desire for his children to return to him on their own and not being forced. A Lie is still a Lie even if everyone believes it and Truth is still Truth even if no one believes it. It’s the same with Right and Wrong. I wish you and your family the best. Sabrina Gaskins
Being gay has not and never will be a choice. This is where you are fundamentally wrong.
It is sad that your brother and nephew have people in their lives who compare the idea of them falling in love with their soul mates to succumbing to alcoholism.
So you have children from your union and that is a good thing so you time was not wasted, but as for the both of you, personally, it’s hard for me to believe that you never thought it would come to this. I am a straight woman in a straight marriage and just coming to the realization that my husband has never really showed me affection and we don’t have a romantic love. Ours is based on respect and more on the cerebral. While I don’t mean that as an excuse, it was different, we are more in control and I needed that then. After suppressing my needs for romance and affection 13 years later, I am realizing that I am unhappy. I am feeling your situation of missing that connection romance brings. If I can’t get my husband to go to counseling, I am looking at a life of much the same. Leaving my husband, however, is out of the question and not being considered at all. I made a commitment for better or for worse, and this is definitely “the worse,” We are older than you guys and that is probably a factor, but didn’t you also make a vow? No matter how you work this out between you, and that is certainly your right and I am not going to judge that, but I don’t foresee the both of you finding two other people who would be comfortable with your ultra close bond. Maybe that’s being pessimistic. I can’t tell you how upset I was last night when I first read your post. I did feel that all your time together was a waste for the both of you. I mean, it felt like you got together so that Josh could be right with his religion. As I said, I was upset. I could not imagine in this day and age two people thinking this could ever work out. Anyway, I’m sure some of your commenters will rip my words, but then there are always people out there more than willing to do that. Good luck.
Your story has led to countless gay men being beaten or disowned by their families, such as one example you made in this post. You don’t get forgiveness. You are a pariah amongst the LGBT community, and you deserve to atone for that for the rest of your days, Josh.
That’s really sickening, MC. Thankfully most LGBT people I know aren’t as angry and resentful as you, and we’re more than willing to embrace the newly-really-out Josh as part of the community. He can do a LOT of good in the future have been through what he has been through. Let’s see how this unfolds going forward. Save your ire for the Ty Mansfields of the world.
I get the reasons for the anger though. I know that Josh and Lolly had the best of intentions and felt that their story in 2012 would encourage other gay Mormons. Because really, until that point, Mormons weren’t really talking about LGBTQI issues at all other than in an utterly condemning way. So in a bizarre way that really makes little sense to anyone who hasn’t been in a fundamentalist religion – Josh’s story began to open doors for people to talk about these issues. It did, most unfortunately, stop short and so was indeed used by parents against their gay children. Josh and Lolly, I believe, in all of their naivete, had no idea this would be a result. It doesn’t excuse it of course but I believe that their mistake was because of growing up in a fundamentalist religion that told them nothing else. Their stance in 2012, believe it or not, would have been an outlier stance in the Mormon church. For all its backwardness, it enabled Mormons to actually start talking about being gay without instantly being disowned. The true blame lies with the Mormon Church and its teachings on this issue – Josh and Lolly had been taught since birth that homosexuality was a sin and all of the other things that Josh listed. Again, not an excuse, but possibly a bit of an explanation. I spent time in my 20’s in fundamentalist Christianity and even though I wasn’t born into it, the messages that were put into my brain at that time are still hard to get out years and years later. I think that until the Mormon church stops with their underlying message of homosexuality as wrong (no matter how many glossy videos they make about it) this will continue. And I believe, as the commenter above noted, that Ty Mansfield is much more of a danger than Josh ever was. His whole raison d’etre seems to be that mixed orientation marriages are a good way to go – and he twists academic articles in order to try and prove this point. Desperate people will listen to him because he gives the appearance of having academia and the APA behind him. Ty, unlike Josh, isn’t incredibly naive. He knows exactly what he is doing. It is almost but not quite perhaps diabolical. His internalized homophobia is so strong that he needs to do this in order to convince himself that his own mixed orientation marriage is working well. He may not be living the ‘gay lifestyle’ but his seeming obsession with it (does a day go by where he doesn’t talk about it/think about/write about/give false hope to his clients about it?) would seem to prove my point.
I get the anger at Josh and Lolly but they are victims of what they were told from birth and they are just now starting to swim out of it. Won’t be easy for them. And if the LGBTQI community are enraged at them, then what other gay Mormon will want to do as they have done?
I agree with you 100%, Karen. Well-stated. There are plenty of people and institutions I feel angry toward, but Josh (especially now) is not one of them. I think my opinion is closer to what most LGBT people feel about this than MC’s unwillingness to let Josh make amends.
Ty is his ilk are absolutely diabolical. History teaches us that the most virulent homophobes are often closeted homosexuals themselves. Ty fits that pattern to a T.
I don’t believe that Josh and Lollie are responsible for the decisions that other people make for their own lives. This was not a lie for “them.” Anyone depending on a stranger to direct the decisions in their lives, without accepting responsibility, is living the lie, not these two people. We are all out there looking for answers but each and every one of us has a unique path, our own path. If anyone fails or stumbles on that path, must get up, brush themselves off and move on.
I do think they hold some responsibility though. Desperate young men and their parents or desperate people in mixed orientation relationships – are looking for anything to hang on to. Josh and Lolly were something they could hold on to. Unfortunately, their story was also used by parents (hmmm, mainly fathers I think) to torture their gay sons with. If someone is close to suicide and Josh’s story was used like a battering ram on them – yeah, there is a responsibility there. So I understand the anger of some.
MC:
His story is how he and Lolly were lied to by their faith community. Josh and Lolly did not set out to harm LGBT people, they were doing what they had been taught to believe. You are blaming the brainwashing victims for their own brainwashing. Why not instead recognize the damage that was done to them by their Church and accept their apology for whatever pain they inflicted, now that they regret it? The idea is to encourage more LGBT people to be aware of the lies they are told and the harm that causes, and Josn and Lolly are brave enough to offer that. Let’s not divide the LGBT house against itself. There are enough forces already that want to tear us down, we need to build each other up.
I wish you both the best in your journey. I also want to offer a book, called Sex at Dawn by Christopher Ryan and Cacikda Jetha, which might help dispell some of those terribly harmful messages you have been trying to overcome.
Major thing Mr. Grammar does not like about the article:
– Josh and Lolly using superlatives and saying that certain things “cannot” be done or are “always” a certain way. Superlative-style of thinking in the negative way of things leaves no space for “God” to work in that field of view to be seen. Superlatives in the “cannot” realm are essentially blinders and reduces one’s vision.
Major thing Mr. Grammar approves of:
-The importance of self-discovery expressed by them. It is needed. Oft times, that comes from experiencing both sides of the spectrum to see the balance of what is “right.” I do not agree with the severing of temple covenants, though I respect their words on the importance of self-discovery, as well as respect their use of agency and choice.
My heart goes out to you right now, but I am so happy for you once everything is sorted out and adjusted to, and you have your beautiful homestead with each other, your children, and your future partners. It will be ok. Thank you for telling the truth as you had it in every moment.
Im comforted and amazed by LDS ppl that understand the ATONEMENT of Christ and those who do not. …..Mormon hater trolls will always be around….Im gay or SSA or whatever u want to call me. But I ALWAYS loved the gospel but the bottom line is…if JOSEPH SMITH saw what he said he saw, then that changes everything. Since I know he SAW what he saw, God would not make two sets of rules. One for Gay and one for straight…its up to us to do our best and have a little faith…..that is…..if we want to….if we don’t want to, that’s ok too…I wrote my story up recently. its free download on amazon…my message has always been….relax.. H F is aware of each and every one of us no matter what path we choose….
I just bought your book and am reading it now. Thanks for the recommendation 🙂
Dear Josh,
I don’t think a person experiencing same sex attraction is broken.
I do think romantic love can be, at times, fleeting. Marriage is hard. It requires sacrifice, selflessness, time, patience, forgiveness, etc.
I say give your marriage and what you two have created together another chance.
Happiness can be fleeting, as well.
You have a wife and children, who at this moment love you. Choose the joy that has come from loving them.
The grass always looks greener, when looking from the other side.
Sincerely,
Honor Mohr
This ^
Josh, thank you for being genuine. I admire your ability to stay true to your faith, even though, at least at this point, you do not believe it to actually be true.
Parts of your story ring very familiar to me, even though our issues are entirely different (and I don’t claim to have gone through nearly as much pain or turmoil as you have). But seeing the mental gymnastics performed in order to stay faithful is something I’m very familiar with. I put a lot of effort into staying faithful to the Church until, clear as a bell, I realized I had created a church in my head that I believed in, and it did not match the actual church and it’s official doctrines. Once I realized I didn’t believe in the Church, the church in my head no longer made sense either. The lack of cognitive dissonance since I accepted that it’s not true has been freeing.
When you have a similar realization with the church, please know you’re not alone. It can be scary as all get out, but it too will be OK, and you’ll truly be able to move on.
Good luck, Cousin.
Josh and Lolly,
I did know of your story when it broke a few years back. I also knew at that time that it would never work, simply because these arrangements never work. My husband and I both have story about Religion and being gay that are similar.
My story:
I was born in the Northeast and was brought up Catholic and attended Catholic school. It never occurred to me to question anything I was being taught about religion. From the earliest age it was all I knew of god, faith, religion and spirituality. At around 12 or so, the normal puberty age, I began to realize that I was gay – this was in the early 1960s. It was horrifying! What had I done to get this? Why me? I agonized over this till I was in my mid 20s. I went to therapists, all of whom claimed that I could be cured. I did not see how since I had absolutely no physical attraction to women at all. But I persisted trying to change, mostly because I believed I would never have love or a relationship in my life. Every attempt with women failed, not only was sex impossible, it was actually disgusting to me (in much the same way as I suspect as homo-sex is to a heterosexual person). Suicide was always an option though I luckily did not take that route (as have so many conflicted LGBTQ individuals).
Somewhere around 23 I began an earnest quest to understand. I read everything I could. Most scientific information was ambiguous at best but there was new psychology that began to question whether it was homosexuality that was wrong, sick, or aberrant or whether it was a societal stigma leftover from certain religions and superstitions. It was being proposed that homosexuality was no more unnatural then eye color, or even a better example is HANDEDNESS. About 10% to 15% of the human race is left handed. It is definitely a minority and has some inherent dangers having to do with living in a right handed world: tools, driving, writing, many basic things are difficult for left handed people. Why are some people left handed? There is no consensus but scientists believe that the brain plays a function in deciding handedness and even though left or right handedness may not present until a person is 4 or 5 years old, it is actually decided in the womb or very soon after. Most of us have no problem with this but did you know that in the dark ages, because of religion, a left handed person was thought to be potential evil, associated with the devil. Even the word “Sinister” is Latin for left! We laugh at such notions today. Other then it being not quite the majority, most cultures do not care about left handedness. Another factor to understand is that decades ago, when teachers attempted to switch left handed people to right handed, they inadvertently caused neurological issues affecting mostly speech. It seems that the hemisphere of the brain that controls handedness is always opposite of the speech center of the brain. Forcing a switch creates a neurological conflict and problems.
How similar is sexual orientation?
It opened my mind to new possibilities. I was also fortunate because it was in the 70s and 80s the whole issue of gay rights began to change. And so did I. I removed the shackles of religion from my life. I began to discovery what really was – and not just what I had been told – and everything changed. I began to have same sex relationship and they were very similar to what I imagined Hetero relationships would be like (if I were hetero). Of course, dating is difficult and after a few long term but limited relationship I met Dave. I was in my early 40s, he was 2 years old and had just left a 19 year marriage with 4 boys.
Now for Dave’s story:
Dave grew up in the mid-west and was brought up Protestant. Dave knew he was gay from a much earlier age them I did; he knew from age 6. He hid it for over 40 years. He attended Military school, was in the Navy during Viet Nam and soon after, in his early 20s, was introduced to the LDS church and joined. He thought it would “cure” him! It didn’t! He met a girl in the church and they married, he proceeded to have as many children as he could, thinking that would cure him. Again, it didn’t. His wife soon discovered that Dave was gay and they went to their Bishop about it. Have more kids was the answer he got. (As if bringing more kids into a dysfunctional relationship would solve anything)! By his early 40 he knew that he had wasted his life up until then. He wife understood that too. They did not have a terrible marriage but they knew there was no real relationship there. They decided to divorce and tell everyone the truth. He was then excommunicated from the church (how loving). We met soon after that. I loved his kids and they loved me. We would have them on weekend and it was amazing to be with them and share my life with them. The entire family, including his ex and I get along great and have spent many holidays together. Everyone has moved on…
Dave and I are happy and have been for the 25 years we have been together (we have now been legally married for 5 years). Our lives are no longer dictated to by superstitions and mythology. We are spiritual but have absolutely no affiliation with any organized religion or church and never will. We saw first hand the damage they cause.
I completely understand Josh’s struggle. But perhaps what gets lost in the sentiment is that Lolly and Josh, because they elected to make their situation public, became part of the problem. Their inability to see the reality of their situation caused a lot of damage that would never have been caused had they conducted their “experiment” in private. Perhaps they wanted parental approval, or approval from their church and society in general but that does not discount the unbelievable damage they and others “ex-gay” individuals have caused!
People can believe whatever they want, any religion, superstition, mythology, etc. But when you attempt to force those beliefs on those who choose not to believe as you do, you create the nightmare that kills vulnerable and innocent people. Josh and Lolly can now try to repair their individual lives but there is no repairing the lives of those poor human beings who, having fail to achieve the lie that Josh and Lolly perpetrated, killed themselves in despair.
Think they are not responsible?
OF COURSE THEY ARE…
The moment then put their relationship “lie” up to the public they cause irreparable damage. Now, I do not think for a moment that was their intention but let us all not forget, the rode to Hell is paved with good intentions. I hope others in their situation will grow up and realized that life is fleeting and only they can choose to live an authentic life.
Josh, I hope you keep blogging. We are all still learning, and you sharing your experiences is really helpful. Maybe we’ll all move a step or two forward because of it.
I just wanted to add a bit since last Thursday. Wow. If you can keep blogging beyond this, maybe we will all continue to learn to be more compassionate and understanding and loving of ALL people–no matter what. Still sending that your way, regardless of the negative impact it has had on some people, including one of my kids. However, it has also had a positive impact. It helps bring to light more about LGBTQ+ and being Mormon–which is so incredibly tricky to navigate. I’ve dealt with suicidal ideation since I was a teenager, because of PTSD mostly. Bipolar, too. My mixed-orientation marriage has helped keep me alive rather than push me in another direction. I am grateful for that. At the same time, I certainly acknowledge your journey is completely different. I’m grateful you’re still alive. My suicidal thoughts shot through the roof last September when my father died so I also know what a huge trauma the loss of a parent can be.
Hi, Laurie. was it upsetting for your child because Josh said that mixed orientation relationships can’t work? I do think if you and your child just think of it as his meaning between a gay man and a straight woman that might indeed help. Women tend to be more sexually fluid and I think would ‘adjust’ much better to being with someone of the gender they aren’t attracted to. Not universally of course. So perhaps you and your son could look at it that way? I’m being sincere. I can certainly be sarcastic and such, but I am being genuine here. I hope that comes through.
I’m a big proponent of therapy – it has certainly helped me and I have a lifelong struggle with anxiety/depression and I am in my 50’s (still blows my mind that I am in that decade!). Not suggesting you need therapy but if suicidal ideation is part of your mindset, it might help? It certainly isn’t easy – at least psychoanalysis isn’t – but valuable and lifesaving.
I actually watched your video up on the LDS site – and was touched. You seem a very genuine person.
oh and I agree about the loss of a parent and trauma – I lost my mom at Christmas 2013 and my dad just 8 months ago. I am still grieving deeply.
And I’m sorry for your losses, too. Losing both parents is especially tough. My mom died in 2014. My brother got divorced shortly before my dad died in September, so he runs around saying he’s an orphan. Such a painful shift occurs when we become parentless.
Thank you for the comments and questions, Karen. You didn’t sound sarcastic. I am in therapy and my therapist has been great (I lost both my stepfather and my father last year). Also, I have a good psychiatrist who used TMS treatment (Transcranial Magnetic Stimulation) for the depression. It has literally been life-saving for me. Josh’s post was difficult for one of my children because he felt it illustrates just how hostile some Mormons can be (the comments, of course, not Josh’s post). But the post also triggered his dissatisfaction with the Church’s stance on same-sex marriage. He doesn’t really worry about the relationship between my husband and I. He keeps that in a totally separate “box”. It’s all about how he feels regarding the Church. The November handbook changes of 2015 and all the negative reactions started his discontent. He doesn’t think it makes sense and he is the kind of person who processes everything on a very logical plane (I’ve explained several different perspectives). We have emphasized love and compassion with our kids, as well as allowing them to exercise their agency with regard to belief systems. They know we love them along whatever path they choose, at any given time.
Hi, Laurie. Yes, being parentless is strange and hard. I am single and have one sister who lives across the country and we aren’t closs. Orphaned indeed!
I am not Mormon myself but was for a time in fundamentalist Christianity so I understand the mindset (and apparently there are mixed orientation marriages in fundy Christianity amongst young people which I find super bizarre and kinda sad. Also in my apartment building are two women in their 30s who got married this year, both having come out of fundy churches. It has been a struggle for them to have their families accept them. and a rather exhausting issue for them.). I understand your son’s concerns and they make sense. And the idea of not being able to baptize your kids if you are in a gay relationship is brutal and cruel. I think that most young people like your son ‘get it’ better than older generations. I will say that I have always only ever encountered super nice Mormon missionaries (I live in Vancouver, Canada and they are all over the place here). Super kind. Super white usually and clean cut but super kind. At the same time, Mormonism is even more entrenched in anti-gay rhetoric than even fundamentalist Christianity.
No apologies accepted! Bisexual hypocritical, who thinks that his apology will withdraw nightmare being experienced by many people to this day, by his life “experiment”.
He is a gay guy who has always acknowledged he was gay and has never felt any sexual attraction to a woman.
Josh did say they had a very robust sex life and in interview he said he is sexually attracted to his wife. (1:50 on Nightline Piece by mormonstories on YouTube.) They had close friendship, trust, robust sex life, and you could see the tenderness and affection between them. If he doesn’t call that romance, I doubt anything will ever make him satisfied. So now they are having sex problems but most marriages do at some point. Many people 15 years into marriage might think they’ll find someone who will turn them on better and call that romance, when what they had ALREADY WAS ROMANCE! There may be other underlying problems that can be worked through and get that feeling back even stronger. I personally wonder if Josh has been viewing porn, particularly male on male porn. Porn of any kind can cause people to question the worth of their sex life and be unsatisfied with what they have. Porn kills love. I also wonder if Josh has never had a strong bond with other males. If he has always felt like an outsider or he felt of little value to his father or to males he tried to befriend, then that can definitely cause a void that leaves a longing for male connection. My cousin who is homosexual was sexually assaulted by a man in the alley behind his house as a young child. Another guy who is homosexual grew up without a male father figure and had a huge void of wanting to be valued by a male. These kind of things topped off by exposure to images or ideas of homosexuality can definitely lead a person in that direction.
your response is like it is the 1950s all over again! Although I do agree, gay porn can be hot hot hot. Many straight women watch it because their are not usually the messsed up power dynamics inherent in straight porn. But yeah, your response is very Ty Mansfield in its outdated and debunked ideas.
Not sure why you wrote you “agree, gay porn can be hot hot hot.” That’s sure NOT what I said so you’re not ‘agreeing’ with ME. I am 100% against all porn, being a victim of sex abuse by a porn obsessed teenager who was supposed to be caring for me as a 3 yr old, and he showed me the porn magazines that he was influenced by, telling me to copy what was in there. I was not around in the 1950’s but I bet people had a lot higher morals back then, before the ‘sexual revolution’ and all the broken lives and abortions that came with it. I was born in the 80’s. And I have no idea who Ty Mansfield is. Also my cousin said that when he was molested by that man it flipped a ‘gay switch’ in him. He was just a little boy and he spent years in confusion, and no one can deny that abuse influenced him in a huge way. Maybe internally he didn’t feel he would be acceptable for any female after that. I can relate to that after being abused myself. It seems that part of his desire to feel more normal after that, was normalizing the man on boy sexual experiences that he had been thru. I notice you’ve been responding to SO many comments on here. Kinda weird. It’s not like you can speak for Josh and Lolly. But whatever.
Sorry about the abuse, G. That is horrific. You should google Ty, you may find you agree with him.i am pretty sure he believes abuse can cause homosexuality.i am commenting alot and using my actual name. Or ALOT as you capped it.i do not speak for Josh and Lolly. Goodness no. I am speaking for myself. And that is okay. It is okay that it is weird. The internet is a weird.place. people on the interner comment and judge the lives of strangers. That is weird.they tell them their eternal lives are ruined. That is really weird. I speak for me in all of my weirdness. Good luck to you and yes stay away from porn.
I am sobbing. I think I went through half of a box of Kleenex. This is the most heartfelt, beautifully painful thing I’ve ever read. This issue alone is what led to my departure from the LDS faith. Though I am heterosexual, I simply couldn’t get past the many issues surrounding this issue within the church. I now attend a wonderful service at my local United Church of Christ building in which all people are not only welcome but able to enjoy ALL of the blessings offered to each and every member. A wonderful gay couple typically sits in front of me with their two beautiful daughters. A Christian fish filled with a rainbow is affixed to the brick by the front doors. Upon reading that you have decided to stay, I was at first a little angry and confused. How could you possibly go forward knowing you won’t be afforded the same privileges? Can’t baptize your girls if you’re in a relationship? Can’t hold callings or stand in circles? How could that possibly be ok after everything I’ve read? I HATE the word worthy but in their eyes, you won’t be! But, guess what? Maybe this is exactly what the church needs. A true change agent. A believer. I’m in no position to judge. No matter what, I think your post is going to touch lives. I know it touched mine. God bless you both!
Thanks for sharing your journey with me. I’m still on my journey and it was really difficult to read parts of it as have made some of those same statements. My heart was ripped apart just as it was when I read the Velvet Rage. Just as I appreciated that book, I appreciate your story.
What is LGBTQ?
Thank you for sharing.
Lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender and questioning or queer
A very heartfelt journey you’re on, Weeds. Thanks for sharing.
As to homosexuality being an aberration biologically: That’s a rather simplistic way of looking at biology. What if homosexuality serves as an intraspecies check-and-balance against population overgrowth (this makes sense particularly in regard to research that links fraternal birth order and sexual orientation in human males, even in situations where brothers are raised apart from each other). Please note that when i say “population overgrowth” i could as easily be referring to a localized resource base – in the case of many animal species – as to the global resource base humanity draws upon, and note that homosexuality is not unique to Homo sapiens. Alternately, from a religious perspective, if God has a purpose for everyone, it’s safe to say God’s purpose for some people is other than reproduction, that some people might have a purpose that caring for a family would become an obstacle to.
By all of the above, i don’t mean to be disparaging to reproduction. It’s an important part of many people’s lives – look how your children offered insight! – but it’s not for everyone. You’re not alone in looking at biology and, thinking sex is only about reproduction, assuming homosexuality is somehow “against” biology. Yet think beyond individual pairings, to the system level: there’s a certain system-level sense in having stably bonded non-reproducing pairs in addition to successfully reproducing pairs. There’s also precedent (both human and animal) for not limiting family structures to pairs.
In your case, it seems, finding your purpose is intimately linked to navigating some really fine lines of love and attachment in a way that is true both to your Inner Light and to the lives with whom your light is linked. Shine on!
P.S. “Recognizing that a Bat is not a Unicorn” might be a more appropriate way of titling this.
An addendum to the above- there is a hypothesis about human evolution of menopause and long life called the “Grandmother hypothesis”, that because human pregnancy and birth are so risky, it makes more sense evolutionarily for grandmothers to, at a certain point, focus on helping their grandchildren and great-grandchildren survive, and that this store of wisdom, childcare, and extra helping hands dramatically improved the survival of their grandchildren and outweighed the advantages of continued reproduction.
The same could easily hold true with asexual and homosexual behavior in humans, also. The fraternal birth order idea lends weight to this, but on a purely theoretical level, it makes sense that making sure 10% of adults are floating babysitters and resource-gatherers with no children of their own to look after would be advantageous, too, who could also be a backup parent in case something happened. Homosexuality is observed in other social animals as well, which supports the idea that there is some advantage to having a small, but variable, portion of the population be non-reproducing but still part of the social group.
Of course, there is a HUGE variety in family organization across human cultures. In some of them, homosexuality would barely matter. In cultures without monogamous pairs as a fundamental unit of family, men will often focus on raising and supporting their sisters’ children, since they have no idea which other kids might be related to him, and non-reproducing aunts would easily fall into this category, too. Other cultures name everyone who slept with the mother during the pregnancy as a “partial father” and everyone who breastfed the baby afterwards a “partial mother”, spreading out responsibility for children among a large group of friends and relatives.
Thanks for sharing your story, filled with so much love and kindness. Youdon’t have to divorce; you can transform your marriage into a parenting marriage. You remove the romantic/sexual aspect of your relationship (as you already have), and continue to co-parent your children in the same house so the kids’ lives don’t have to be disrupted and they can see both of you (and vice versa) whenever wanted. That frees each of you to live your romantic/sexual lives outside the marriage (if you want that). As long as you have children together, you will always be a family; choosing to have a parenting marriage makes it easier for the kids, cheaper and easier for the parents. You can learn more about it in “The New I Do: Reshaping Marriage for Skeptics, Realists and Rebels.”
What a sad suggestion that they stay married but then fill their sexual/romantic desires with other people. Using other people is what you’re actually suggesting. Then say Lolly gets pregnant by another man while she’s married to Josh. What a disaster that is asking for. They made marriage vows and they should keep them.
Thank you.
You are all incredibly beautiful. I am in awe of you and your process. Love and blessings to you and your children. You all deserve it.
Please share the message: if you identify as gay or attracted to the same sex, do NOT ruin a woman’s life by marrying her under false circumstances. Even if you are confused, discover yourself prior to commitment. I have seen this way too often. As a gay man who knows many gay men who have married women in the church and then divorced them after years and children, YOU are harming them. I am not coming from an atheist, sacrilegious view, but from someone who has lead Bible study for years, read the Word extensively, and believes in people as well as God.
No, Hope. You are placing blame on the wrong source.
The Church harms BOTH of them when it promises to either heal the gay person or condemn him forever. They teach it to gay and straight people alike, and both believe that through no fault of their own. You are blaming the persons who were lied to, for acting on and passing along the lies they were told by their spiritual leaders.
What you’ve done here, Hope (an ironic moniker), is blame Josh for what was done to him. It’s surprises me that a gay man (such as you say are), does not see that when so many straight commenters get it clearly.
Thank you for being so incredibly honest, you are so brave! We have been raised in a culture that is so homophobic that it is hard to see anything else. I think you and your family are going to help this people to start to open there eyes and start to see. Thank you again!
Hi,
I am a 19 y/o lesbian, devoutly religious. Just wanted to say thank you for sharing your story- a lot of it resonated really hard with me, and your comparison to stellaluna trying to live like a bird actually brought tears to me eyes. It really is like that. I wish you and your family all the peace and good things in the world. Your homestead sounds like a beautiful dream. God bless you and love you.
Lolly, I’m sorry you and Josh have been through so much pain together, but your friends were wrong in the first place. You really deserve nothing, as do we all. What we all deserve is death, suffering, pain, opposition, and hell, because of the Fall. It is only because of Christ that we receive ANYTHING. Did Christ deserve to suffer and die? Of course not. He sacrificed for us, and traveled alone. His ONLY concern was his love for his God and fellow brothers and sisters. His only pursuit was to be obedient. If we are not willing to sacrifice all things for God (and God wants us to sacrifice by having children and raising them within the bonds of marriage), we are not worthy of any reward. Sacrifice brings forth the blessings of heaven, and not necessarily in this life. There are countless heterosexual marriages where the mechanics of sex are happening but the romance is lacking. This is normal for everyone in long-term relationship. I realize that for you both there is something extra lacking, but for all of us, we honor our commitment to our spouse, our children, and to God, and past the test of obedience. It is never an easy road for anyone. I hope you reconsider your decision and choose to put God, your children, and your eternal destiny ahead of any potential benefit you see of dissolving your bond.
Whoa that is some heavy guilt being laid there.
Men, here you have the entire problem with your type of Christianity. Are you really going to go on with the idea that the 2/3 of the world that isn’t christian is also not happy?
Nonsense.
“There are countless heterosexual marriages where the mechanics of sex are happening but the romance is lacking. This is normal for everyone in long-term relationship.”
One, citation needed.
Two, even if this is true, just because this is how things ARE does not mean that it is OKAY. Why should people tolerate loveless relationships and passionless sex if after all their efforts, it cannot be fixed? Why should people accept unhappiness when their are many more people out there who they could make much happier, and be happier themselves? If this is the truth about heterosexual relationships, that doesn’t mean homosexual people should conform to that misery, but that heterosexual people should improve their lives. Do not inflict your suffering upon others.
Third, did you even read the article? Their children featured heavily in their decision, in their choices, and in their path forward. They could not model a good relationship for their daughters between the two of them. They could not be their best selves for their kids. But, they saw a path forward in continuing to live together (or very close), to be a family and parents for their daughters, but without lying to themselves or anyone else about their relationship, their desires, or their struggles.
(and IMO, the idea of having four parents, two houses, and 160 acres of land to run around on sounds like a pretty great childhood.)
Thank you for sharing such vulnerable and intimate experiences and feelings. Thank you for your honesty. Along with the story of the bat and the bird, there is a big beautiful bat family outside of the church. I’m not gay, but a former member. After resigning, I tried for a long time to make the church family still work for me, because regardless, I genuinely loved those people. At some level I also needed that love and support back from them. And the truth is, I wasn’t getting it in the ways I needed most. But the thing is, I realized that it’s ok for a bat to need a bat family for support. They are the ones that will know how to love you and help you continue the journey of loving yourself as you are. ❤️❤️ It really is ok to gravitate to those that will help you do that best. My heart goes out to both you and Lolly, and your beautiful kids! I wish you strength during this difficult time of change. I wish you all the best on your continued life journey, you both are incredibly beautiful people with beautiful hearts. It takes a lot to apologize to the and express the things you have.
A beautiful, honest, journey of self-discovery. But so very wrong to call another person’s journey or relationship “wrong.” We all have to make hard choices in life – and we often have to choose between two good things. And those choices need to be right for us – not right for everyone else. We cannot be worried about the messages we are sending out to the world when we are choosing the one person we will love for the rest of our lives. That is a decision made by and for two. And if you say that the Weed’s marriage was “inherently wrong” then please tell me what message that sends to their children? Should they never have existed? Are they accidents? Freaks? The black and white way in which this issue is painted by so many in the LGBTQ circles is so dogmatic – and hurtful. And I submit that it is just as dogmatic and hurtful as the LDS doctrine can be to others. My wife and I have lived very happily – like the Weeds – for 24 years now. And I can’t imagine living with any other person or in any other way. And, btw, where does the doctrine of Christ “take up thy cross and deny thyself” fit into this modern world of complete and total self-acceptance? This noble doctrine, taught by the Son of God (and once so loved and valued) has become evil in our modern world. Why! And how is that fair? The only answer is because there are many who find this teaching offensive. But to me – and to many others – it is the beautiful core of Christianity. Loving and patient Self-denial is the highest sacrament of discipleship. Can not a person accept a part of himself and yet still not embrace it – finding peace and not self-loathing? What I have with my wife is not “inherently wrong.” And I can assure you that our nine children were – all of them – gifts from God. Created in heaven and on earth – exactly as they were intended to be. Although I have urges and desires that I never intend to fulfill, I AM still fulfilled. And happy. And my wife and I are one. So my point is this. Leave the other Josh Weed marriages alone and do not expect or hope for them to fail. Because many of them – a great many – will endure forever.
Thank you for sharing your truths.
You have wise and loving children… they have great human examples.
Good luck and good heart to both of you on your parallel journeys.
Have you considered that the homestead might be to get away from the world and focus on your marriage for a while? I wonder if the difficult stories you hear as therapists and the blogging has dragged you both down emotionally to the point that you believe that you’re unhappy due to these personal issues, when in reality you simply need a change of pace. I was married for 17 years based mainly on romantic attraction, and I would take marriage with my best friend any day over the “spark” of romance. If it wasn’t going to work due to mixed orientation it wouldn’t have lasted as long as it has. The fact that you have such a close intimate relationship makes your marriage salvageable. Romance comes and goes but true friendship is what makes a marriage last.
I wish the best for you Josh, but am feeling uncomfortable with the naïveté of your idealism future and am interested to see the post when Lolly’s new husband does not want to be part of this communal living. Then another set of apologies will need to be sent out to men who were thought bigoted and un-accepting if Lolly wasn’t their dream wife. Your vision of such a future is as mythical as your unicorn. An ackowledgement of the difficulty of living on your happy homestead is in order. Not because your gay, but because you robbing him of his need to create a home for his own family will be as painful as the denial you have lived with. Your understanding of the past has clarity that your future does not. Best to both of you.
I just want to express love. The path you are choosing is incredibly courageous. I know you’ll receive comments across the spectrum I just wanted to add one to the positive column.
I second this! I wanted to do the same. I am not in a position to say what this family should do but I can say that you are valuable people (and eloquent!). Thank you for being so honest, it helps us all on our journey to figure this stuff out. I hope the best for you good people!
I empathize with your situation, I really do. However, you made a covenant in the presence of “God, angels and witnesses” that you would be faithful to each other for time and all eternity. Personal feelings and sexual desires don’t override covenants or promises that have been made.
The notion of “romantic love” that you mention over and over in this post is a modern day invention. There are many instances throughout history and to this day of people being married without “romantic love” involved. The prevalence of divorce, giving up, and doing what “feels right for me” will bring nothing but pain and sorrow from an eternal perspective.
I hope you both reconsider.
The notion of romantic love as a modern-day ideal is debatable (and we certainly didn’t “invent” it–anthropologists have documented individuals choosing their own spouses in varied societies all over the world).
Further, it’s inaccurate to compare a heterosexual marriage without “romantic love” to a mixed orientation marriage. In the former, there’s a basis for attraction–the mutual physical attraction between a heterosexual man and woman, even if their initial attraction fades over time. In the latter, that baseline attraction is completely absent, at least for one person.
The only accurate comparison is to picture yourself having to marry someone of your own sex. Maybe your best bro. C’mon, you yourself said that marrying someone of the sex you’re not attracted to is no different that being in a straight marriage without romantic love, so you shouldn’t have a problem with this. That is what you’re expecting Josh to do. And Lolly.
As a straight woman myself, I can’t imagine being with a man who had zero physical attraction to me at all. By the same token, I can’t imagine having to suppress my natural orientation to live out a marriage with a woman. Just the thought feels *off* in my body and my aversion to it goes far beyond wanting to do what “feels right for me.” My attraction to the opposite sex is rooted in my biology, and forced to live in conflict with that, I would likely get sick one day. As Josh points out, psychosomatic symptoms are rampant in LGBT+ people forced to live contrary to their fundamental nature. The body can only withstand that for so long.
So, unless you’re willing to endure lifelong celibacy or marriage to someone of the same sex as you, you can even begin to imagine what level of sacrifice you’re asking of Josh and Lolly. Intimacy with a partner of your own orientation is a basic biological need for most people (with some on the asexual / aromantic spectrum being the exception).
Unless you’re willing to give that up yourself, don’t be so arrogant as to presume you can expect others to, no matter how many half-baked religious guilt arguments you throw around.
Biological feelings are irrelevant in this situation. They made a covenant (promise) to each other to create an eternal family and they are breaking that promise.
I know promises don’t count for much these days but that is the decision they made.
It’s not about guilt. As someone who is obviously not religious or part of the LDS community you can’t understand the implications of this decision. Much like I don’t understand what it is like to be a gay man.
Regardless, this is a promise they made which they are now choosing to break over “feelings”. It will have serious consequences.
Oddly enough, I am rather religious.
And I understand the consequences to LDS folks – no Celestial Kingdom, no eternal family, separation from all of that.That is inculcated in you from birth, that fear. I trust Josh and Lolly enough to know that they are making the best decision for themselves and their family. Why all the judgement in your and other comments? I think it has three main reasons:
1. a complete and utter lack of understanding of what it is to be gay (and you yourself say you have no idea).And then that utter lack of understanding is bizarrely coupled with a decision to judge something you have no understanding of as though you are an authority and yet it is something you have zero understanding of. People grasp at straws and start throwing out debunked theories, a la my personal hero, Ty Mansfield. Now there are some gay folks commenting and some gay folks in mixed orientation marriages so at least they understand what being gay means. They are more #2 and # 3 reasons.
2. The inculcated terror instilled in you from birth about not being in the Celestial Kingdom and being with your eternal family. Along with this is the tiny unconscious part that says -‘what if there is actually no Celestial Kingdom oh my gosh Josh is threatening my belief. Change back, Josh, change back so that I can feel safe again. And for folks in MOM’s who are saying no no and judging – seems clear they are terrified that if Josh can’t do it, neither can they. They may have to look at their marriages. And their wives may have to start realizing what is really happening at an unconscious level. That’s terrifying. So again, a lot of the judgement is really, ‘change back, change back. I’ll scare you so you will change back or I’ll guilt you until you do.’
3. And of course, homophobia.
So, yeah, I get it. I get the terror. But Josh choosing to live a gay life doesn’t have to threaten your own beliefs so threatening him with serious consequences (and it is really a threat ultimately) doesn’t a) work and b) it’s not helpful. The psychology behind all of these commenters ‘terrified’ about the eternal consequences for Josh is quite clear aw I’ve mentioned above. And yeah, being inculcated from birth with certain beliefs makes everything pretty bloody terrifying.
The severity of being forced to live in contradiction to your fundamental nature can’t be dismissed as “biological feelings” anymore than the need for shelter and community can. Living in congruence with your nature is not a mere feeling. It’s a basic biological need.
Without expression, this unmet need eats away at a person’s psyche until they experience depression, psychosomatic symptoms, or suicidal ideation, like Josh experienced. The mind and body can only tolerate that kind of forced incongruence for so long. And with, rhetoric like yours and what I’ve seen of LDS literature, I’m not surprised that Utah has one of the highest suicide rates in the country, particularly among LGBT+ youth. I imagine that holding a person’s status in their eternal family as ransom for compliance to an arbitrary list of rules doesn’t exactly do wonders for one’s mental health.
You’re correct that I am not LDS (what gave it away? lol), but incorrect in your assumption that I have no spiritual beliefs. My beliefs don’t derive from an individual who would probably be grouped with Jim Jones, were he a contemporary of ours, but they are valid, nonetheless. I respect that your beliefs are valid to you, though, even if they make no sense to me. I also respect that, in all likelihood, you are addressing Josh and Lolly from a place of genuine concern for their well-being. At least, I hope you are. Attempting to turn people away from their chosen, God-directed path for purely selfish or dogmatic reasons wouldn’t reflect well on you or your religion.
I hope that Josh and Lolly continue to trust their personal communication from God over everyone and everything else.
They are remaining a family. Just not spouses.
Is there really only two choices? Suicide or a gay partner (homesteading your daughters with three dads and a mom)?
Why is everyone so self-consumed with this idea of self-fulfillment and doing things that will make them feel important and valuable and “true to themselves” that they lose sight of what is truly important in this life. Like bringing their children back to Heavenly Father and themselves while they’re at it.
Christ promises that if you lose your life for His sake you’ll find it.
So is Christ telling the truth or not?
This is what I had hoped for for your family ever since I heard your story years ago. When I say ‘hoped for’ I want to clarify that I do not mean that in a mean or malicious way. I had hoped that both of you would be shown that you (Josh) were just as you were made to be and that that was truest alright. I hoped that you both would come to learn that you were both capable and deserving of love from partners who truly desire and love the whole of you and that when that was realized that it would not be caused by undue pain (cheating). I hoped that your family would find a way to live both together and apart keeping your family secure and bonded while learning to find fulfillment with other partners. I am so sorry for the pain that I know this realization has cause but so happy and excited for you both to experience your new lives and selves going forward. I wish you both all the happiness in the world.
Best,
Jessica Lynn Strom
Listen Josh-ie…im gonna talk to you from a gay, LDS, married to my wife in the temple ..(www.triumphantovermyenemies.com)…I thnk u been hanging around the gay coffee shops in Seattle too much…bottom line..did Joseph Smith see what he said he saw? IF he did, that changes everything..If he didn’t, then religion is really kind of optional..I know he saw it…Im gay as you are…u need to snap to it and take care of your family instead of making excuses…that is…if you want to….call me girlfriend…we will talk…
I hope he never calls you.
You bring up a valid question when you ask “did Joseph Smith see what he said he saw?” In fact, you should start with “what exactly did Joseph Smith see?” There are historical records of at least 4 different, first-hand accounts from Joseph Smith regarding his “first vision,” and they each vary in detail (LDS.org has posted confirmation on this, by the way, approved by the leadership). For instance, in one version he describes seeing only one personage, God. In another version, he states that he saw two personages, God the Father and Christ the Son. This is only one example of many differences as given by Joseph Smith; other differences include changes in WHEN it happened, HOW it happened, etc.
Once you have read the multiple accounts and catalogued their differences, ask yourself how important the variance is between them. Why would Smith’s account of a single event change so much over time? Why is only one version taught as “the truth” in Sunday School, and why is that particular version the only one taught (it was not the first account)? Why has the Church only recently confirmed that these separate accounts exist, and why did Joseph Fielding Smith (or someone close to him) physically rip one of the accounts out of Joseph Smith’s journal?
I’m happy to provide LDS-approved sources for all of the above, I just don’t want to be marked as spam for links.
Yes, there are four versions of the First Vision. The variance among them is not terribly important. They tell the same story. To understand why there are multiple versions and why they are different, all you need to do is remember the most vivid or powerful (spiritual or religious) experience you have ever had and ask yourself how many times you have told or written about it.
If you have told or written about YOUR experience more than once, consider carefully: was every version or retelling exactly the same? Why were there differences? Some differences will naturally appear over time. If you never wrote your experience down until 12 YEARS after it occurred, you might not remember everything the first time, and so you would add those details into later versions. And if you wrote the story four times for four different audiences over TEN MORE years, you might focus on different aspects of your experience, to prove whatever point you are trying to make at the time, and to highlight additional lessons you have learned from the experience.
I have told others about a certain personal revelation several times, and I am confident the story has changed with each telling. But that doesn’t make my experience any less true! It also doesn’t make me a charlatan.
I imagine that, upon reflection, Josh and Lolly would retell their “coming out” story differently today than they told it just 5 years ago. They would include new details and leave out others. Which version would be true? Should we assume they are liars, if their story changes?
Furthermore, how many versions of the same events exist in the four gospels of the New Testament? (For examples, see the different versions of the nativity, the ministry of John the Baptist, the baptism of Jesus, the calling of the apostles, various healings and exorcisms, the Sermon on the Mount, various parables, walking on water and feeding five thousand, the Passover week, the Crucifixion, and the Resurrection.) Some of these events vary dramatically from one biblical telling to another–even to the point of outright contradiction. (Does anyone really know who saw the resurrected Lord FIRST or how many angels guarded his empty tomb?) Some stories are told both in the Old and in the New Testament. Some stories are told in the Bible and in the Apocrypha (which can be beneficially studied). Some sermons are preached by Jesus in the New Testament and in the Book of Mormon. How many different versions of the Creation and the Fall are there in LDS scripture, including in the Pearl of Great Price and the temple? Do they differ?
Of course! Mormons and other Christians ought to be used to differing versions of scriptural events! I think we are accustomed to gleaning truth from all of the canonical versions taken together, and sometimes even from the non-canonical ones.
Why did/does the Church teach only one version of the First Vision and arguably tried/try to suppress the others? Probably because the Church is led by error-prone men who made a mistake. They elected to canonize one version of the First Vision (in 1880) for any number of reasons. They published that version, and they largely forgot about the others. When church members, including the local and general leaders, came across Joseph’s other versions, they feared (just like Peter on the water) that people might lose faith if the versions got out, so they suppressed them. And when the internet publicized the church leaders’ errors, they denied the truth (like Peter at the Crucifixion). Silly apostles! Always doubting (like Thomas) that the Lord can do his work, even if there are multiple versions of scripture (like the lost 116 pages), and even when the prophets make mistakes (like Joseph, himself).
The Lord lives. He appeared to Joseph. And although Joseph, like Moses and Peter, was imperfect, the Lord still used him.
Exactly. Beautifully said.
The details are important, because they contradict each other.
Dr. Shades, I wrote 722 words directly rebutting your comment. You can read them above.
You didn’t “rebut” my comment. You merely listed a few lame excuses that explained nothing. For just one example, he wasn’t 14, 15, or 17 depending on his audience. He was either one or those ages or some different age.
If he was in a trial setting, he’d be thrown out of court and his “testimony” stricken from the record.
Nope. Not a problem:
As an accountant, even I don’t know how old I am right now. I literally have to do the “Arithmatic” just to figure it out, because keeping track of my age is not important to me, and I choose not to celebrate or remember birthdays. IF Joseph had gotten his age wrong, that would have been excusable, considering his education. But he didn’t. He was 14.
https://www.fairmormon.org/answers/Joseph_Smith%27s_First_Vision/Accounts/1832/Different_age_provided
And if you think THAT very straightforward apologetic explanation of a non-existent arithmetic contradiction is not clear enough, try reading THIS apologetic explanation of an apparent arithmetic contradiction in the Bible:
http://truthsnitch.com/2017/06/21/many-jacobs-descendants-went-egypt-70-75/
Details like this don’t really matter. AND Joseph was always consistent about his age.
Oh, wow! Dr. Shades, you did it! You found a contradiction in Joseph Smith’s most fundamental testimony that PROVES beyond all doubt, almost 200 years later, that Joseph was lying. He couldn’t even get his own age right! The Mormon Church will surely be brought to it’s knees by the revelation you just discovered! In fact, it wouldn’t have even gotten off the ground, if this truth had been known. I can’t believe they hid it from us!
Except…it’s not even true…
(When the moderator approves my previous post, you can read my more measured response with links.)
If I had seen God, then I certainly wouldn’t forget how old I was when it happened. The date, time, and place would be burned into my memory forever. Heck, I’ve experienced far LESS spectacular things than that that are nevertheless burned into my memory forever.
But I guess you and Joseph Smith are the only two human beings in existence who would forget how old you were when it happened, whether it was God and Jesus, Jesus only, or some angels, whether you were praying for forgiveness or whether you were praying to see which church was true, etc.
Yes, Dr. Shades. Why don’t you tell us exactly how you imagine you would act if you ever saw God? Then, we can compare how you suppose you would act (after receiving your own personal revelation) to anyone else who says they have actually received revelation. If any of their actions don’t exactly match the way you think you would act under similar circumstances, we can know they must be lying. Easy! I think I now see the logical way your brain works.
Are you a religious or spiritual person, Dr. Shades? Have you ever had a powerful spiritual revelation or witness? If so, please share! That will allow everyone else to compare your actions to what they think you should have done. Then, they will know whether you are telling the truth.
And if you haven’t had a powerful spiritual revelation or witness, then why do you think you have any idea how you would act?
Yes, I have received very powerful, intense, overwhelming personal revelations at least twice in my life. I can describe the experiences in (what I think is) vivid detail–but each time I have done so, the telling of the story has changed somewhat to reflect my current understanding. But do you know what I can’t tell you right now, without hunting through my journal? I can’t tell you the date these revelations took place. If I had not been taught to keep a journal, I would not now be able to tell you how old I was.
But please, don’t bring up the “Joseph didn’t remember his age” thing again, as if it’s some kind of game-changing deal-breaker. He knew his age. It was 14. He always said it was.
Yes, but I’ve never contradicted myself when I’ve told them to other people. And if I’d seen God, then I’d *NEVER* contradict myself.
And Joseph didn’t always say he was 14. He also said he was 16 at one point and 17 at another point.
No. He never did.
Since my original response has not been approved by a moderator, I will try to share this link again. I shared other interesting links before, but since you just keep insisting Joseph lied about his age, I’ll just ask you to go to this link and then please tell me where you get your information.
You will need to edit the space out of this URL:
fairmormon. org/answers/Joseph_Smith%27s_First_Vision/Accounts/1832/Different_age_provided
Oh Josh and Lolly, my heart hasn’t stopped thinking about you guys since reading this 5 days ago. You’ve never met me, but the Lord has used you as an intimate part of my journey in life and I love you both so much. I have followed you very closely these last 5+ years and I feel like we are close friends. I have come to trust you and your reliance on the Spirit. Everyone has their opinion and I know a lot of people feel the need to share theirs with you, but I want you to know that as someone who has read/listened to anything and everything I can get my hands on from you guys these last several years, one thing I know for sure is that Josh and Lolly Weed try everyday to follow the Spirit. And I know as long as you do that you can’t go wrong. Huge hugs from Wisconsin
JOSH, I have not read the other comments. I have a question for you. I would appreciate your opinion, if you have time.
I have not felt that “spark” of romantic sexual attraction for my spouse since before or shortly after our marriage, if I ever felt it at all. So many of the things you described about your chemistry with your wife match my experience exactly, though I am straight and in a heterosexual marriage. You say you “technically” found Lolly sexually attractive. You could get an erection, have sex, and even orgasm. In the same way, I “technically” find my partner sexually attractive. We are “mechanically” good at sex (as Lolly put it about you).
Still, like you, I do not feel “the chemistry of bumping into someone who I was attracted to and who might be attracted to me, the casual grazing of hands that sends a tiny spark of electricity through both people—the simplest of things.” If I ever felt those things, it has been 15 or more years, and I don’t remember it at all. Like you, when we hold hands or kiss, I have “a vague sexual stirring cuz, hey, two human bodies were doing the kissing thing.” I, too, have “allowed myself to believe that there were levels of attraction and connection on a sexual and romantic level that weren’t actually there.” And my lover has “often said “something is wrong” in our intimate relationship, and I poo pooed it.” Something is missing for me and in my marriage.
Should I get a divorce, too? Will I find what I’m looking for with someone else? Does that thing even exist in ANY marriage? And if it does, is it eternal and permanent, or is it momentary and fleeting? And is what I’m looking for going to be worth it, when I find it?
Please help!
Josh doesn’t know the answer to all of your life questions. You have to go on make those decisions on your own.
OK. Please ignore the question, “Should I get a divorce, too?”
As a therapist, Josh, please tell me, if you have time:
Will I find what I’m looking for with someone else? Does that thing even exist in ANY marriage? And if it does, is it eternal and permanent, or is it momentary and fleeting? And is what I’m looking for going to be worth all the pain and costs of a broken marriage, when I find it?
I should add that, like you, I have several children, and my marriage is arguably amazing in nearly every OTHER conceivable way. But this way seems important to me, as it does to you.
Please ignore the question, “Should I get a divorce, too?” I know you cannot answer that.
As a therapist, Josh, please tell me:
Will I find whatever I’m looking for with someone else?
Does that thing (the thing you feel you are missing, too; the strong, sparking, romantic sexual attraction) exist in ANY marriage? Or is it just a “happily ever after” myth? Do you know many people, in your experience, for whom it exists?
If it exists in marriage, is it eternal and permanent, or is it momentary and fleeting?
Is what I’m looking for going to be worth the pain and costs of my broken marriage, when I finally find it?
If I find it in another relationship, is that relationship likely to be as strong as my current one? Will it make all other relationship problems seem small and inconsequential again? Or will there potentially be OTHER problems that seem more grave than this one seems now?
I know you cannot tell me the future, and you cannot tell me what to do in my specific situation. But I want to know if I’m crazy. In your professional opinion, from your own professional experience, does the thing you and I are opining for really, truly, exist? And is it worth giving up what we have to get it?
oh now now. you are just trying to get him to re-think his decision.
My marriage is the way I’ve described. I have not considered divorce, because I don’t believe a better situation exists, and because (like Lolly and Josh) I don’t WANT my family torn apart. However, my questions are intended to determine whether I might be wrong. Is there someone out there for me better than my current spouse?
Chris, I sense your honesty and desire for an answer to your questions. I would say that rather than asking a therapist about it in a general way, through social media, you should look for a highly recommended MFT (marriage and family therapist) near you. Then you can get assistance for your particular situation. It may be possible to improve intimacy with your wife. I would do all you can to preserve your marriage, especially since you said parts of it are “amazing.” A professional therapist would spend time counseling you and getting to know you. He or she may (or may not) suggest that your wife join some sessions, unless you feel otherwise. As others have commented, marriage truly takes a great deal of commitment and effort, but that doesn’t mean you can’t work toward finding more satisfaction and joy in the relationship.
Interesting take. To me it seems like such an obvious play to get Josh to reconsider. Sigh.
Thank you for your response, Laurie. I will consider what you have said.
One reason I have not yet approached a local therapist is, as I have explained, I have a seemingly great marriage and family, with the exception of the missing spark of romantic sexual attraction. Sometimes, it’s a huge, frustrating, terrifying, hole. Other times, it’s bearable and seems so inconsequential in the grand scheme of things. Although I desperately long for that spark to appear, I don’t leave my companion and go looking for it elsewhere because (as I have said), I don’t currently believe a better situation exists. What if I actually find that spark with someone, but my current family is utterly destroyed and my future family has multiple unforeseen problems? Wouldn’t it have been better to just keep the SINGLE large/small problem I have? Or what if I am able to find that spark, but then I discover that it only lasts for year or two, and I’m looking for it again?
I absolutely have these questions, but I’m afraid that approaching a local therapist might cost money (which I don’t have), and the costly answer might just be something I already feel (“stay the course”; “endure to the end”; “go forward in faith” 😉 ).
That’s why I’m hoping Josh and Lolly, as therapists, might share their honest opinions about my situation, although I can hardly imagine they will. (They are probably too busy.) They SEEM to think that there SHOULD be a better situation out there for someone like me. Everyone DESERVES to be loved that way, right? I feel like I relate to them on so many levels.
Anyway, I will be thinking about this for a while. Maybe in 5 years, I, too, will be ready to end my marriage. Right now, I can’t imagine it, despite my pain.
PS, I find it interesting you assume I’m a man, Laurie. No offense at your assumption. Perhaps it was the fact that I related myself directly to Josh’s comments. I am not interested in details about me being discovered, since it might hurt my spouse’s feelings to know what I have written. They know this issue exists, for sure, but, still…
I have heard about people that feel the same way you do. If we can establish that there is good and evil in the world then we can agree that there are forces that either push us toward that which is wrong or that which is right. I believe that marriage and forming a family is good. I believe that parents doing all they can do to stay together to keep the family together is good. So I believe that giving into urges and craving outside of this would be wrong and would destroy the beautiful family you have.
I think if you focus on all that is good in your marriage and family, focus on developing talents, hobbies, studying, reading, and relationships with other couples and families, then you will find some good fulfilment in your life. Life will never be perfect, we will never fill completely fulfilled. We will suffer in this life, but at the same time, as we seek to do what is good, that suffering will be lessened and we can find joy. That has been my experience and that is what I have seen in the lives of my associates and family.
Ashlee, thank you for your response. I just noticed that you were replying to me.
What you have said is what I have believed and tried to practice in my marriage for the past 15 years. Still, there are decades more to go in this life and in my marriage. Sometimes, our problem feels big, and sometimes it feels small. When it feels big, I wonder whether it’s worth looking for that spark of romantic sexual attraction elsewhere. I never have looked, but I still wonder… And Josh and Lolly make a pretty convincing case that I should look. (Assuming, of course, THEY are able to find that spark elsewhere AND still maintain their current level of family happiness.)
I suspect you will find yourself bitterly disappointed if you leave what is a happy marriage for “greener pastures.” I suspect your children will likewise be disappointed (if not extremely upset) if you make that choice, as well. My parents got divorced because their relationship was hurtful and broken and their marriage was basically a total failure. And yet…their next relationships were no better, and in many ways were worse. My father has had failed relationship after failed relationship. My mother didn’t try again after the disaster that was her second marriage. It’s been really sad for me to watch.
I have a lot of respect for both of you. You have always struck me as courageous people, and that hunch is further confirmed by your post. Your children have honest, earnest parents, and they are fortunate for it.
Out of curiosity……let’s say for argument’s sake that the church did not excommunicate you. Would you remain sealed to Lolly? Or do you plan to cancel your sealing as well?
Shirley, that feels like an intensely personal question, but I suppose they’ve been quite open.
At this point, Josh hasn’t done anything that would warrant disciplinary action. The Church is working to reach out to LGBTQ members and recognizes that their path is a difficult one. I suspect we’ll see policies on these things change over time.
What we know for sure is that God loves all His children and wants them to be happy. The Plan of Salvation is also called the Plan of Happiness for a reason. This feels at odds with requiring adherence to a life that can never produce true happiness for Josh and Lolly.
One wonders if in time, the law of Chastity will simply be that we’re to have no sexual relations outside of marriage, regardless of the gender of the partners in that marriage. Time and revelation will tell.
I know this post is about your journey and thoughts. To get the numbers right, scientific surveys put the LGBT community at about 3.5% of the population. That doesn’t really matter for the purposes of this post, but as long as we’re throwing out numbers, we might as well use the correct stats. A Gallup poll concurred, with 3.4% of the population self-identifying as gay.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2014/07/15/what-percentage-of-the-u-s-population-is-gay-lesbian-or-bisexual/
https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/health-science/health-survey-gives-government-its-first-large-scale-data-on-gay-bisexual-population/2014/07/14/2db9f4b0-092f-11e4-bbf1-cc51275e7f8f_story.html
What is indisputable is that the LDS Church has something about the policy and doctrine on this question wrong. Just don’t tell my bishop.
I knew a young man. He always knew he liked boys. His church told him it was just a phase. That he would grow out of it. They used your story (along with many other things) to convince him that his best course of action was to go on his mission, come back and get married. He did all those things. He still liked boys. He and his wife had a baby. They were going to have another. He still liked boys. He killed himself last summer. Please make an effort to ensure that this post gets as much attention as your first. It could save lives
Suicidal thoughts come from evil spirits, who because of weaknesses in mind and body, can exert influence. The more someone entertains lustful thoughts for anything, it allows those evil spirits to gain control. Lusting for something is all about selfishness. It really comes down to that. Is your behavior selfish or unselfish? Are you motivated by love for God and for others, or by selfish desires.
Jen–No, no, no. There is absolutely no scientific basis for your assertion re: suicidal thoughts. Evil spirts, wtf? Are we still living in the dark ages?
No. Suicidal ideation, depression, and other forms of mental illness are medical conditions that actually have a physical effect on the mind and body. They may be caused by or contribute to neurochemical imbalances or even changes to the brain structure itself. In a college abnormal psychology class, I was shocked to learn (and see a brain scan confirming) that long-term depression could actually cause atrophy (shrinking) of certain parts of the brain. Those with mental illness are NOT making it up or succumbing to “evil spirits” or character defects, anymore than someone with diabetes or cancer is. Like any person with a more visible medical condition, those with suicidal thoughts need treatment, not judgment or false information.
In fact, by framing mental illness as a form of personal weakness, character defect, or the product of “evil spirits,” you are perpetuating the same vicious mental spiral that so many sufferers of these conditions are trying to escape from. When a person is already suicidal, having someone parrot medieval-era falsehoods will only make them feel WORSE, blame themselves MORE, and INCREASE the likelihood of a suicide attempt. Is that something you want on your conscience?
For the love of God, if you ever encounter someone who is suicidal, don’t even think about telling them any of what you wrote here. People have literally killed themselves over such insane nonsense as what you’ve written.
Never said mental illness was a result of evil spirits. Simply stated the truth, that evil spirits take advantage of mental and physical weaknesses like mental illness to gain access to one’s thoughts. I’ve had too many experiences with evil spirits to doubt their existence.
Josh seems to have explained his motives in quite some detail.
I can’t decide if this is the funniest thing or saddest thing I’ve read today. Either way, it’s amazing that anybody in this day and age thinks that “evil spirits” have anything to do with mental illness.
Reading how Josh described his suicidal ideation resonated in a very personal and frightening way. It’s so familiar. Thank you, Josh, for being so honest with us. Everything you said makes perfect sense, and it’s made tomorrow look a lot more hopeful.
And Lolly, you’re an amazing woman and a brilliant mother. Your daughters have a wonderful example of how powerful and important womanhood is in this world.
You’re both incredibly lucky to have one another in yours lives, and I hope the coming decades are just as fulfilling — just maybe with new partners!
“A bird cannot choose to be a dog. Like Stellaluna, a bat cannot choose to be a bird. And a gay person cannot choose to live the life of a straight person.”
Is this analogy appropriate? Dogs, birds, and bats are not the same species.
“Is this analogy appropriate?”
Yeah. It’s gotta be broken down into the lowest common denominator so that people of all cognition levels can understand and appreciate the lesson.
Thank you. Thank you for your honesty. You will all be much in my thoughts and prayers. I do so deeply resonate with all that you share. In a few days, we’ll mark our 38th wedding anniversary. Nearly five years ago now, my wife finally ‘came out’ to me and to herself as a lesbian, and our low-sex marriage became a no-sex one. But as you say, it’s not about sex. It’s about not being able to share desire, and the deep damage that does to both partners. We’re now both in our 70s, no children. But we will neither of us ever know that deep level of connection if we stay faithful to our marriage vows, as we intend. We’ve been through therapy, together and apart. Retreats galore. Prayer, fasting. I feel I’ve been through an advanced course in human sexuality and psychology. Sexual orientation does not change. God cannot change it, will not change it. And it not a choice. It is a given, like my blue eyes! I wish that there was more understanding for the massive damage that churches and faith have done to couples like ours, to flesh and blood human beings, who have honestly struggled to do ‘the right thing’. I feel as if I’ve had to cut off one of my two legs with a pocket knife (my sexuality) and nobody else knows or notices, and I just have to go on walking. We’ve said that we’re too old and too poor to dream of starting new lives apart and looking for new partners. We share so much, have such a good life together in every possible way except that of desire and sex. The one thing that has changed is that we have modified our vows. Will this be enough to give us some measure of peace and satisfaction, to overcome the days when I wish an accident would end it all, or some life-threatening illness would put a stop to the ache, the pain? Our vows now explicitly are: ‘until death do us part, or until one or the other encounters a new love of their lives, but neither of us is looking’.
You are both such an inspiration. Thank you for this post, post and for standing in your truth. The world becomes a better place when people do.
Good luck. <3333333333333
I used to dream of being like “older couples” that way. In my case it was because I (bi) was being raped by my boyfriend (straight). I had been attracted to him but he destroyed it. Real safety and real romance, in combination, is incredible.
An apology is a good start.
However, I wonder how much of it is warranted.
On one hand, you actually did help bring to light an important truth, which is that getting married does not change the fact that you are gay. This is really an important point.
Ill-meaning evangelicals try to pretend that everybody is born with the same sexuality, and they pretend that gay sex is just “bad behavior” by people that have the same sexuality as everyone else. According to their interpretation of sexuality, getting married and having children ought to have made you just like any ordinary straight man, just as if you had never been gay at all. Your Mormon upbringing could not possibly prepare you for how destructive this is. While Mormons and many Catholics acknowledge that innate homosexuality actually exists, evangelicals really do not.
When you said publicly, “I have been married for a long time and even had children, and I am still gay,” you refuted the evangelical view of sexuality. In the eyes of an evangelical, what you were saying was impossible, even nonsense. You might have made many evangelicals angry because they believe that, if you are really a Christian and really trying to be moral and really married to a woman and really praying every day, then for you to be gay is impossible. They would have said you were a liar. They would have said you were trying to corrupt the minds of their children. You knew that there would be backlash against you from all sides, so you were being very brave.
Even though you were not in a perfectly enlightened place at the time, though, you actually might have helped a few gay kids, from those families, realize that being gay does not mean they are bad Christians. It just means they are gay. You might have actually done some good. Maybe you might have made some conventional liberals angry, and maybe you might have made some stuck-up conservative evangelicals angry, but if you could keep even one young person from hurting himself based on the thinking that gay thoughts mean he’s becoming a bad person, then you might have saved a life.
If anything, what you are doing now is following through on the good intentions that you had by coming out, and you are following through from the standpoint of being more experienced and more enlightened. Instead of trying to sweep your experience under the rug and pretend that your divorce is happening for unrelated reasons, you are coming out publicly and saying clearly, to the public, what you know to be the truth. A lesser person would have said some nonsense like “unreconcilable differences.”
An apology is a good start, but I hope you are apologizing for the right reasons. The right reason to apologize is for hurting yourself. Hurting yourself sets a bad example for others that don’t deserve to be hurt by anybody, much less themselves. Make good on that apology by never hurting yourself again if you don’t have to.
As an ex-Catholic lesbian, this post actually pushed me toward re-examining my faith, or lack thereof. When I was Catholic I assumed that my only options were to accept the Church’s expressed position on all issues, or abandon religion entirely. It didn’t occur to me until I read your beautifully-written post that my real quarrel was with the Church leadership, not with God. They, not God, were the ones insisting that God would punish me for deviating from the party line.
God created me with blue eyes. This is, as your friend noted, a rare and even deleterious mutation. But nobody would ever tell me to wear brown contacts or else God would punish me. He intended my eyes to be blue, even if it is not the “norm.” Is it not possible that he also intended for me to be a lesbian? The only reason I can think of that it might not be is that the majority of lesbian couples cannot produce biological children. But if God intended for all of us, without exception, to procreate, we’d be in a serious overpopulation crisis. So maybe I’m not meant to have children, but to be a good “auntie” to my cousins’ children.
I loved Lolly’s parallel with Stellaluna (also one of my favorite books as a child). So much of religion these days seems to be about the one “correct” way to live. Yet there is an astounding amount of variation between individuals within the human species. Why should we expect all of them to conform to one lifestyle? Sure, for most people, sitting upright, sleeping at night,
and eating bugs suits them fine. But what if some of us are more inclined to hang upside down, sleep during the day, and eat fruit? Should we make ourselves miserable trying to conform to the birds when the overwhelming evidence is that we’re bats and their ways simply don’t work for us? I can’t believe in a loving God who would tell someone to deny part of who they are in order to conform. This is what so many straight people don’t understand about homosexuality–it’s not a lifestyle choice or a weird quirk, it’s part of our identity and can’t be erased without also erasing a significant part of what makes us, us.
I don’t expect this will convince anyone one way or another, but I did want you both to know that you’ve given me some serious food for thought.
(Sorry, I have no idea how this ended up formatted so weirdly.)
Sure, it’s possible that God intended for you to be a lesbian. It’s also possible that He gave you challenges and intends for you to overcome them. There’s no way to know for sure just be reasoning it out in our own minds. We don’t have the inherent knowledge within ourselves that is required to make that kind of judgment.
I have blue eyes, so God intended me to have blue eyes. I also love eating carrot cake; so God intends for me to eat lots of carrot cake and hence become morbidly obese. Or does He?
As Mosiah 3:19 states, the natural man is an enemy to God. If we didn’t have any reason to rebel against God, then serving God would be meaningless because it would be easy. As a result, those who ‘put off’ their natural inclination to rebel against God allow Him to draw closer to them.
Matt, I am actually a gay guy, and I can tell that there is not very much that you know about our lives.
Some of us spend a while trying to pursue a straight marriage, but in the long-run, we realize that this is selfish. We get into these marriages for the benefit of looking “normal” to those around us, but the problem with being married to someone, even if you can’t feel romantic toward that person, is that you actually care about that person. You care about that person a lot, and you go through every single day knowing that you could never give that person what she deserves, no matter how much you might want to. We don’t break these marriages up for the sake of pursuing something like a “carrot-cake,” but we we break up these marriages because we get tired of keeping those marriages intact for reasons that are really petty, shallow, and selfish.
Sometimes it seems less selfish to spend our lives alone as single, sexless men, but if you are alone for too long–yet have the emotional needs of a person that would otherwise never be alone–you end up leaning on your friends a little bit too much for support, which ultimately just turns you into an emotional vampire. You eventually realize that you have become an anchor in the existence of people that have given you too much of themselves, and again, that sense that you are really being a selfish person starts to creep in. It creeps in like a monster in the darkness that won’t let you sleep.
Eventually, after you have exhausted the charity of your friends, one of them finally snaps at you that you should stop wallowing in self-pity and just get on Grindr or something, anything to give you something to do besides clinging to the coattails of someone that has other concerns in life. Well, that works for a while. For a while, it’s fun to play the field, and you end up with a list of faces that you always keep an eye out for. Even though it’s intended to be heartless sex that is intended to have no more depth than a game of pick-up basketball, you can’t help but have ones that you keep looking for. Eventually, you find your eyes lingering longingly upon the same face, yet one day, that face disappears without further explanation. Again, you’re back to being a tormented person that ultimately is an emotional leech on his friends, and you find those friends growing increasingly impatient with you.
None of us can be an island, and many of us eventually just need to settle down. Eventually, it’s time to put away childish things…such as playing house with a woman and pretending it’s a marriage…or doing hook-up sex as if we were still boys in college….and just settle down with somebody. Eventually, we have to stop playing dumb games.
“When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things.”
Please accept my comments in a very non-judgmental way but if we are allowed to comment then we can give opinions and if it is opposing it doesn’t mean it is hateful.
Marriage in not “perfect” for any couple. Every couple has to endure many many things whether that be the idiosyncrasies of our spouse, to the lack of sex. We get used to overlooking things because that is what marriage is about, enduring a relationship and making the best of it while concentrating on all the good things that a relationship has and if we look for them, we most likely will find much to enjoy about a relationship.
There are many post of gay men who leave their families and end up regretting it a lot.
I really hope you will reconsider this, know that any relationship will not be perfect and completely fulfilling. You have children that need both parents in the home. Focus on all the good things you have in your life and endure to the end and I know that with time it will get easier to resist.
Mixed-orientation marriages tend to be more complicated than you might think.
I am not going to make any assumptions about what is going on between these guys, but my ex-boyfriend and his ex-wife were trading accusations, popping antidepressants like candy-corn, and feuding constantly. For a while, they had managed to keep up a charade for the kids, but that charade had started to break down. They had played “pretend straight” for fifteen years, but the longer they kept up the act, the more resentment and anguish tended to override reason. When reason takes a backseat, paranoia creeps in, although it doesn’t last long before it turns into tearful apologies…the first time, anyway. It doesn’t stay gone for long. The tension just keeps creeping back. There is bitterness. There is blame. And then apologies. The cycle wears a couple out, though.
While I have no right to assume about what these people specifically are experiencing, I am pretty sure that couples like this one don’t split up lightly.
Sometimes, divorce is the only way you can save a friendship.
Is being in a homosexual relationship something that will please God or something that God wishes for his children?
If not, doing so may indeed fill one void in life but will create another void, the void of being more distant from our Heavenly Father than we could be if we were being more obedient to His commandments.
Feeding the “natural man” inside of each of us will bring some measure of satisfaction, but will also bring loss.
There is no special exception to the commandments for someone who decides that they’d be happier ignoring/modifying the law of chastity, no matter how many worldly voices insist that this must be true. We all have to bridle our passions and keep them within the bounds the Lord has set if we want the companionship of His Spirit.
I cannot emphasize this point enough: we can never be truly happy if we are doing things that put us at odds with our Creator.
If this makes a reader angry, remember also that sometimes the truth can be hard to bear.
Matt, refer to Numbers 31:15-18, and after you have put the advice contained in those verses into literal practice, I will accept that you perhaps you really do take the entire Bible literally.
The truth is that there are verses contained in the Bible that, taken without context or any sense of cultural or historical understanding of Christianity, can constitute extremely poor advice. The majority of modern Christians tend to take the volume as a whole, not as the sum of its parts.
At this point in history, it is self-evident that gay people are born gay. Every other possible explanation has been tried. We can’t even clearly pin it down to genetics, but it seems to be controlled mostly by the timing of normal hormonal fluctuations in utero. You can call it “random chance” or “divine intervention,” whichever is more believable to you.
If you ever find out that a kid in your community is gay, though, then I will tell you the best thing you can possibly say:
“You were made the way you were for a reason.”
That’s all you need. You don’t need another syllable. You can leave it alone after that. At that point, it is perfect, and anything else you said would make it less perfect. Leave it alone.
Josh and Lolly – As a longtime reader I was sad to read this (I hope that doesn’t offend you, since this must be sad for you on many levels too, whatever you’ve decided about what’s right to do) and I am praying for you and your family. But reading these comments, so unlike the much more supportive and kind community your blog once had, I can’t help thinking – why don’t you just turn comments off? It can’t be anything but painful to read them, plus you’ll be saving people who want to write something vicious from themselves.
i’m beyond glad to hear that you have grown and accepted all part of yourself and that you and lolly know that your happiness is the most important thing. i want you to know that your honesty is appreciated and i hope you’re both looking forward to the wonderful things in your futures!
Ok, this made me cry. I have been reading your blog throughout the years, and have always been impressed by your honesty and love. The honesty and love in this post moved me to tears. I am straight, but I can understand what you describe in this post. I think your homestead idea will be great. Your children are lucky to have you both as parents.
Best of luck to you both. Your experiences with homophobia sound so harrowing and dark, but I hope you can live your days with filled with a new hope. I know you’ve strove all your life to be a morally upstanding person. When it came to your sexuality, your desire to do the right thing led to immense pain. I think your work is going to lift many gay and bi people out of that pain. You are doing good in the world and you are finding a way to thrive as a human being. It’s a wonderful project. <3 to all LGBT Mormons.
I stumbled on your blog post by happenstance. I’m not a regular follower, though I do think I vaguely remember hearing about your story 5 years ago. First of all, you and Lolly offer a very beautiful testimony and I am privileged to have read it from end to end. I am a 20-something gay Catholic male. Although I don’t know a whole lot about the LDS Church, I think our respective churches have similar official positions with regards to LGBT issues. However, unlike the LDS Church, we place a strong value on celibacy, as evidenced by our priests. Unfortunately, this has led to a culture in which gays and lesbians are *expected* to live celibately and deny themselves a healthy, monogamous relationship that heterosexuals are privileged to have (after all, priests do it every day, so why can’t gays). What you said about romantic attachment really struck a chord with me. It is a fundamental human need, and it seems only a small few are born with the strength to dissociate from that need in a healthy way. Celibacy is certainly not something that can be forced onto someone without devastating consequences. That is something I think the LDS Church has a fundamental understanding to work from that the Catholic Church does not. I have a couple friends that are gay and trying to live celibately in order to abide by the current teachings of the Church. I worry for their well-being. I worry about the day I will log into Facebook and see that one of them has taken their life. I do not think this kind of torment is what God wants for them. Romantic isolation is poison for the soul.
I’m sure you have already contemplated this to some degree, but you are about to step into a very different world. The LGBT community is often not particularly welcoming of its religious members (understandably, many of them have been hurt by religious figures). We religious LGBT are often seen by the wider community as “uncle Toms” and I’ve lost more than a handful of dates on account of being a Christian. Sometimes I wonder if it’s harder to be gay in a religious community or religious in the gay community. You really get stuck between two worlds, and that can be the biggest struggle. But you do have a very beautiful family and that is a huge asset as you adjust to this change in your life. I am sending you and your family my heartfelt prayers as you navigate this new journey!
Thank you so so much, Lolly and Josh, for sharing your story with us over the years. Your individual and familial development has been absolutely inspirational. Man, I can’t reiterate that enough! This journey sounds like it must be so incredibly difficult and beautiful at the same time; so vulnerable and liberating. I’m so grateful for your example in doing what is best for you! Thank you and God bless you and your family!
…but also may God bless the returning commenters moving us with empirically researched opinions.
DO we celebrate or mourn? That’s always the question.
So proud of you both.
Both of you, Josh and Lolly, are to be admired for your courage in showing your truth to the world, and more so, for the example you are setting for your children. Children need to see that adults, even their parents, sometimes have to adjust, or change their minds or change the direction of their lives, and that it can be done with love, courage, acceptance, respect and transparency.
Acceptance and honesty are the best lessons we can teach our children. We all make decisions based on what we know at the time we make those decisions, and if we learn something new, there is no shame in correcting a previous decision. The worst lesson for children is to see parents making each other one miserable, living a lie, or trying to hide who they are, or covering up a mistake. That you did this publicly speaks highly of your love for your children, each other and yourselves. What more could God ask of any of us than to be honest, humble, admit our errors, forgive others for theirs and make amends. You are doing what He expects of us.
First I’d like to tell both of you that I am so happy for you and the next phase of your journeys. I would caution you though that remaining actively involved with the LDS church is not going to be easy, especially when they are still advocating against the LGBTQI community. You may end up feeling very differently about the LDS when and if your children are singled out and not welcomed and allowed baptism. Also I am SO happy that you recognize the severe damage that internalize homophobia creates. A friend of mine was in a mixed orientation marriage and it ended in attempted murder! Yes you read that correctly, she was push down the stairs and her neck and hips were broken. She did survive, and they did divorce, but this is just an example of what can happen. Not saying it would have with you, just saying things can get REALLY bad when people internalize their unhappiness. Especially people who’ve been abused and don’t know how to manage things anyway. Good luck with your homestead and new family paradigm…please though PLEASE beware of the LDS church, now that you are out and going to be living your truth I hope you will see the church for how it really is!
Your journey pierces my heart. I feel tremendous compassion for you both and your daughters. When someone says, “I must break [insert commandment] or commit suicide,” I don’t know how to respond. I just keep thinking about your situation over the last few days and while I read my scriptures. It weighs on me.
It seems to me that the overarching message of the scriptures and the Gospel is that this mortal life is super hard, torturously hard for many, but the sacrifice is worth it, whatever God asks us to sacrifice for Him. The reward is peace in this life and Eternal Life and Exaltation. Jesus Christ sacrificed all. He promised that if we lose our life for His sake we will find it. Was He telling the truth? Is He truly a God of miracles?
I love your term “beautiful aberration.” My autistic son is truly a beautiful aberration. I love him exactly as he is. His autism is a huge part of what makes him him, and why I delight in him. In the resurrection, when he is whole, I will sincerely and deeply miss the autistic version of him. But I will also delight in his wholeness, in knowing who he really is and was, unfettered by the autism. Mixed emotions. I’m going to ask him a lot of questions. 🙂
May Heavenly Father bless you and your family as you seek His will and to align yourselves with it.
Of course my response is, DON’T COMMIT SUICIDE, I love you, but I think you should keep the commandments. Kind of ends the discussion about the commandment.
Wise words Brenda, Thanks for sharing.
Brenda, I believe you are trying to understand and empathize. Some questions for you: do you believe people of color will be white in the next life? Or that everyone will speak English? Can you imagine if God were to change an aspect that was so fundamental to someone’s identity and experience and something that is often beautiful (diversity) so that we were all the same version of “whole”? I assume because you have an autistic son that you understand a bit about ableism right? Can you see how comparing sexuality with disability is rather ableist? Even equating disability with something to be “overcome in the next life” can be ableist, since it often comes from people’s views of disability as a weakness or struggle rather than an attribute which is part of what makes someone unique/themselves/etc. I have a friend who is often told because of her disability that she”ll meet someone in the next life, which is very ableist to assume she won’t find love now because of it, and her response is that she can’t imagine wanting to be with someone who didn’t love her/get to love her as she is now. Things to think about too. Further, what do you mean by a God of miracles or telling the truth? The verses from the Bible that give us our current LDS doctrine on homosexuality all are very problematic and can be easily disputed and shown to be out of context, not applicable, and possibly additions to the text by later editing (as in the case of Paul). Joseph Smith didn’t get a vision of the abomination of homosexuality. And prophets aren’t perfect. How do you think we go the priesthood/temple ban? It wasn’t revelation as the church now quietly recognizes on lds.org’s “Race and the Priesthood” essay. If we insist on an all/nothing narrative about prophets being right in every aspect, we are doomed to either fundamentalism/zealotry/bigotry or heartbreak/disillusionment. There is so much that we are learning from church historians, from scientists in and out of the church, and hopefully one day from ancient cultures who have always viewed homosexuality as a gift or opportunity with unique contributions to society. I’m just inviting you to lean into your responses and where we as a people and culture can let the open canon open up a little more by seeking further light and knowledge instead of forcing our current understanding into problematic justifications similar to all the racist nonsense that came out for over a hundred years (and still floats around) about the temple/priesthood ban… One thing that I know is that God blessed all of His/Her creations as good when they were created and even the church now is recognizing the biological factors of homosexuality, so maybe it’s about time we can do that too and stop viewing people as broken/needing to be fixed for being different…
Good questions. Thanks Emily
Your decision has broken my heart. I have looked up to you, Josh, as a role model ever since I read your original post 5 years ago. I have thought of you so many times when I’ve gone through hard times.
I am LDS, straight, and have been in a Temple marriage for 20 years. I have endured my husband’s depressions, lack of work, extreme weight gain, poor hygiene, Dr. Jekyll/Mr. Hyde moods for most of my marriage. I stopped feeling attracted to him around 10 years ago, maybe more. Many have said I “deserve” better. But we have 3 beautiful daughters and I have chosen to put them first. They deserve better. Do you think I miss that “spark?” Yes. But I KNOW that honoring my Temple covenants is what God wants me to do. I have worked hard to make the best life I can for my daughters in spite of these difficulties. I live without that “spark,” knowing God has something better for me. Eternity is a LONG time, much longer than mortality. I know that once children are brought into this world, they deserve the best—a father and mother who stay together, and who put them first. I sincerely hope you and Lolly change your minds and keep your family intact. You are so blessed to be married to someone you feel is your best friend. Thankfully, I have found ways to love and respect my husband and endure the difficulties. Heavenly Father doesn’t give us more than we can bear, but He does get really close. I trust that He will keep His promises and eventually wipe away my tears.
PS–These beautiful women are inspiring: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rSKWRTaJNw0
Thank you for being so brave and so beautiful. The world needs bats and birds and love. Thank you and I wish you all the happiness in the world.
It is my first time reading this blog so I don’t have any background or opinion on the journey that Josh and Lolly have taken. And my religious background relied less on obedience (Episcopalian and Buddhist) than is the case here. But the story resonates with me because I am gay and married to a woman (officially we are separated but we still live together) and being born in the 50’s the general societal judgments on homosexuality were similar to what many leaders in the Mormon Church still proclaims. What I found interesting is the path that Josh took to claim the label for himself as “gay”. Which is certainly better than the labels I have given myself over the years. Like the label of “pervert” (when the only perversion is a gay man trying to force himself into being straight), or the telling myself I am “just not very good at being straight” (which makes as much sense as calling a cat a “bad dog”), or refering to my sexuality as “a part of me that is gay” (as if any of the other parts would be contaminated if I just accepted I was gay). At the time my unwillingness to accept the gay label was because I felt it restricted me. Even if I accept my sexuality for what it is, I still didn’t want to be defined by it. But now I sort of see that as a cop out. By saying “I am gay” doesn’t mean I have to act or think a certain way, or like people or things I don’t like. What it means is I can just stop questioning myself all the time and just live my life. I don’t have to be threatened when I find someone attractive or not (That man doesn’t attract me, am I straight? I find that woman attractive, does that mean I’m not gay?) Or try to change myself to fit into some imaginary gay world. Kind of ridiculous really the contortions I have gone through just not to accept myself as a gay man. But a necessary journey all the same which I am sure will evolve and continue.
Beautifully written and so courageous. All the best to you and your family!
I appreciate their openness and sincerity. At first, I thought, how could this be? And as I read it, I understood. I can see very much how Lolly feels that the right thing for her to do at this point is to divorce. All I kept thinking while reading Josh’s words were: “put a frog in a pot of cold water, and slowly turn up the heat…then you’ve got him.” It made me so sad, because I could see how Satan was presenting these little, subtle, half-truths to him and very slowly turning up the “heat.” The first half-truth seemed to be that his sexual orientation was beautiful. Yes, and no = half truth. The Grand Canyon, and blue eyes? Ok, sort of…but you have to be careful with analogies, because not all analogies are “analogous.” Yes, his sexual orientation could be beautiful in the sense that he could learn and grow and set an example in a really unique, special way. For almost everyone, our greatest strength can be our greatest weakness and vise versa. I do believe that God made us all with strengths and weaknesses. It’s part of the the testing and growing and learning that we need to learn from to progress in this life. It’s simply not true to me and a clear rationalization to say “anyone who views themselves as broken is unhealthy.” Why? Maybe it’s just a matter of semantics…but not facts. We aren’t suppose to reach “perfection” in this life. It doesn’t mean that we should hate ourselves for our weaknesses (THAT would be unhealthy)…but we should acknowledge them, and go from there. Even Christ (who was sinless) grew “grace by grace.” Are we better than him that we should think that we have no weaknesses or shortcomings…that we are just perfect as we are? The world, yes the “world” would say YES! Because in the “world” anything goes! There is no “right” or “wrong.” But then there would also be no truth or growth. If someone had a really bad temper, should he just be told that his temper is what makes him “beautiful?” What if that temper went unchecked and he decided to hurt someone? Is that part of the beauty of his temper? Or…what if he realized he had a bad temper and worked really, really hard to control it? What if it even went against his natural reactions to control his temper? What if holding his temper in and not releasing it in a fit of rage made him feel like he was holding back a part of himself? Would people tell him….”Look, it’s just who you are! It makes you beautiful! Release those feelings however you feel like! You don’t need to control them or harness them!” Is that what people should say? Would that be ok? Or…what if he said to himself: “Ok, I have a really bad temper. It even makes me feel better for a while to get really, really angry sometimes. But I know it’s wrong. As natural as it is for me to loose my temper, I have to fight against those feelings and CHANGE my reactions, change my behavior, channel it another way. I need to learn, grow, pray, and yes—control my feelings in this life, until I become better.” Wouldn’t most of the world even applaud this thinking? Wouldn’t most people encourage him to do this, and even stand in awe of his “beautiful” example of working hard to faithfully endure and overcome his weakness? Maybe knowing that he could do this (with the Lord’s help) was the very reason the Lord allowed him to be born with a weakness for having a terrible temper. Maybe the process and strength that would come to him from overcoming that weakness is what makes him “beautiful.”
I know that what I’m saying will probably feel hard to swallow for most people. It does go against the “world’s” advice. And yes, it is true…we are all the world. We are all born with things we need to overcome. That does not make us bad. It makes us mortal. That is exactly where we are in the eternal perspective of things…we are in our mortal, imperfect state. That IS how we are suppose to be, but it is NOT how we are suppose to stay. I wish Lolly and Josh well. I just feel like it’s another win for the Adversary….And not because they are getting divorced. (I have been divorced myself. I was married to an unkind man. We were married in the temple. We received a temple cancellation, and I have been remarried to my true Eternal companion for almost 17 years now.) I feel like Josh’s rationalization (yes…half-truths) have won, and that is why I am sad for them and their family. Maybe they shouldn’t stay married, but I don’t think Josh’s words are true. (Even though I believe he is convinced they are true for now.) He contradicts himself by saying that after his mother’s death, he realized how short this life is…and yet he goes on to say that he doesn’t know how he could continue for so long in this life. I get it, I think we all feel that way about life at times. I wish him well and pray that they both find peace and truth, and eternal happiness.
Did you miss the part where he was suicidal? When it comes down to it, the choices are him slowly sliding deeper into depression and suicidal ideation, or this. Which is kinder to his family, to himself? He mentions realizing life is short and that life is long, but those can exist simultaneously. Life can be too short to cause misery to the people we love and deny oneself, and too long to suffer out forever. Those things can exist at the same time.
We cannot become so tied up in what people SHOULD do that we miss what they ARE doing and WHY. We can talk about how he should just overcome this (somehow) with prayer and focus and dedication until the cows come home, but that doesn’t mean that it will work any better than it has for the last fifteen years. There is a saying that the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and expecting different results.
Do we want to engage with what we think should be happening, or what is happening?
Do we want to do what we think will help, or what will actually help?
Do we want to be right, or do the right thing?
That!! Posts like this help me process Josh’s decision.
I especially love what you say what really makes a person beautiful. What made Josh beautiful to me was his commitment and loyalty, to Lolly, but especially to God.
I love Josh but agree that he’s somehow ended up believing half truths which made it incredibly difficult for me to process all of this, because some of what he says is not wrong and I completely trusted him because I shared so many beliefs with him before. Now it’s all gotten confusing and tangled up with things the world proclaims. I, too, feel the adversity told him things that are nicer to hear than “endure to the end”.
He might get that spark which might be fulfilling, but what about losing the Spirit? Is that a good exchange? I feel like he’s convinced that he won’t lose the Spirit because he thinks he’s figured out the LDS church is wrong in that one aspect.
Maybe he does need that phase in his life but I truly hope he’ll finally see where those promptings he claims were from the Spirit came from.
(that being said I hate what people have to go through who feel the way Josh does. I sympathize with him as well as every other person going through hard times and trying to find their way in life. I don’t know the right way for other people but I loved Josh’s approach to his struggles – choosing the harder but profoundly better path and am deeply saddened he didn’t pull through. not because I don’t want him to find happiness, I truly truly do. It’s just going to be so much harder without the Lord’s support.)
Vanessa, I’d like you to read through the post again.
If the choice is committing suicide in ten years, like many LGBTQ+ people in LDS have done, or a divorce, which would you pick? Because there may well be no other paths forward. There may well be no other end to his pain than either embracing who he is, or killing himself.
You say you wish he had stuck out on the harder path, but I don’t see you acknowledging where that path can lead, and where it HAS led for many.
Vanessa,
You keep asserting that Josh has only two choices: 1.Suicide, or 2.Acting on his homosexual feelings. What about other choices, like: staying married and taking anti-depression medication (which many people need to do for a variety of reasons…gay or not!). Or the choice to get divorced, and continue to live a celibate life? Many single, LDS people who are straight do just that. Would they like to be married and have a romantic relationship? Yes, of course! But for whatever reason they have not been able to, or can’t or whatever. However, they find fulfillment in their lives, contribute, and continue to keep their temple covenants. Josh is choosing not to do this. If you are not LDS, I can understand your position and even possible confusion about the things I am saying completely. However, if you are LDS, then the words I am trying to convey should be clear. My main issue with Josh isn’t that he is gay, or getting divorced. It is that he isn’t being honest about it, because he is trying to rationalize his choice by saying that it is what God wants him to do. And for the many reasons I already listed in my previous post above, I am just pointing out the dishonesty in that.
I’m not LDS, no. But I’ve got friends who are.
And in the end, when his realization is leading him towards an outcome that helps him, his wife, his children, and others who are suffering, and harms no one… why do you doubt it? Why encourage him to do something that will cause him unnecessary suffering?
Compassion should always be our first action. The lessening of suffering and the cultivation of joy are, in my opinion, the most important things we can do on this earth.
The church changes its opinions over time. All religions do. All of them. I am an archaeologist, and can speak to both religions old and new. People come to new understandings, new revelations occur, and new interpretations take root. It is an institution made of people, and history, and all the opinions of everyone who has been part of it before.
Instead of doubting that his revelation is real, why not take a moment to consider the alternative: that it is a step in the direction the church will ultimately take? Maybe not this year, decade, or century, but eventually. They called Martin Luther a heretic for opposing corrupt practices in the Catholic church, but in the end, they adopted many of his recommendations, didn’t they?
In the end, even within a religion, what we choose to believe IS our choice, because two people can interpret the same writing wildly differently. It’s why I don’t terribly care what my friends believe, regardless of their varied religions. Their beliefs are meaningful to them, and that is enough for me. but I do care what they DO, because that is what affects others and can either lessen suffering… or increase it.
This choice is not causing suffering for anyone in his family. It is freeing to his wife, to him. It will hopefully allow their daughters to be more genuine and to see a true, romantic love modeled for them. It is freeing to those who are suffering most, who like him, contemplate or commit suicide, or merely suffer in silence for the rest of their lives.
First, do no harm.
Your solution is to take drugs? You’re officially an idiot. Go read a book. And your comments about single people are also absurdly false. Here’s a hint. Any single male that is unmarried, into his late 20s, 30s, 40s, whatever, if that man claims to be celibate, he’s probably a liar. He’s either sneaking around, covertly, or he’s got a very healthy porn and masturbation habit. And I say healthy, but it’s not really healthy, because masturbation, while nothing wrong with it whatsoever and is a healthy thing to do, is not a replacement for an actual relationship and human connection. Someone who’s living that lifestyle is NOT happy and fulfilled, no matter how well they have mastered the primary voice, plastic smile, or whatever other mormon culture nonsense.
Bottom line, the church is NOT true. It’s false. You worship a false god, which takes on many graven images. And every painfully ignorant comment you post on this thread about your precious golden calf only serves as more evidence of this fact.
P. S…. I meant to address Allison, not Vanessa! My apologies!
DW, It’s not letting me reply to your comment below (I think the nesting of comments has hit max?) but I got what you meant, no worries! 🙂
Allison… How am I not being compassionate? I have many non-LDS friends too. But being friends with someone from a certain religion does not give them the same understanding, context, or testimony of that religion. From a believing LDS perspective, I believe that he will not be happier ultimately, but this would be very difficult to explain to you from my perspective. I do understand from your viewpoint that you think I am not being open minded about what Josh wants to do. Actually, I believe that through his agency he can choose to do anything he wants to do. And I do not wish to deny him any happiness at all. I also am not his ultimate judge, nor am I trying to be. However, as a former believing LDS person, Josh WILL lunderstand what I’m trying to say. Again, it is his agency and I would not treat him unkindly for it at all. I am just calling out some of his inconsistencies in his “logic”… And pointing out the half-truths that are very clear to me. I am not, nor have I ever advocated for anyone to be unkind or not compassionate in sharing my thoughts and insights. As far as PETER goes… since I can see that your reply is laced with contention and name-calling, I will keep my response brief respectfully disagree with you. Don’t attack me for my testimony of my beliefs and expect that to be a legitimate “reply.” Please keep your comments level headed and civil. It makes for kinder communication and allows for a better understanding on both sides of the discussion. Thanks!
Alison,
I also have to point out like DW that I am speaking from an LDS perspective which is only truly understood by LDS people who feel the way I do. I think Josh was one of those. That is also why others did not understand his post 5 years ago. It might be hard to take that perspective and I agree that it does not sound understandable to someone who just hasn’t felt and understood what we have.
I have read Josh’s post very carefully and have thought about it a great deal in the past week. And I in no means want him to commit suicide or anyone for that matter. Like DW I also don’t think that’s the only solution here. I think it is about your focus and I believe Josh has started to focus on his desire to live his homosexuality and I see how that (in Josh’s situation, of that never happening but thinking of it as vital) can make a person suicidal. I am no stranger to the feelings Josh described: “How can I do this for so many more years??” This does not only apply to homosexuals in the church. It can be transferred to all kinds of problems and afflictions. But those feelings can change again with shifting your focus. It would still be hard and something that’s always there – but if it’s not your main focus, I truly believe this is nothing that necessarily has to make you suicidal. Not with the Lord’s help. What that way is though, I don’t know and don’t claim to know. That’s a personal decision. (there is living proof of that being a reality, even here in the comments) I think that Josh was there once and reading back to the things he’s said 5 years ago, things that really stuck with me and that I found profound and deep, I am sad and even a little hurt that this is now set off as “naive”.
The difference to other afflictions is that you can stop looking at homosexuality as an affliction. And I guess that’s the main difference between the “world” and the LDS church. What’s confusing to me is that Josh wants to be in both worlds. Whether the church’s stance will change or not, I cannot say. All I know is that of right now, it is what it is and to pick things you want to keep and things you don’t just doesn’t work with the LDS faith in my opinion.
I think it can be tricky to communicate the evolution of any person or relationship in a blog post. I appreciate the couple’s willingness to share their story. It is a brave and vulnerable thing to do. I think that a decision to divorce in no way negates the importance, value or impact of the relationship. I wish Josh would have used statistics to back up claims he made about how many individuals identify as LGBTQ and that certain beliefs increase suicidal or depression in such individuals. It is dangerous to assume that the experience of a few is the experience of all. I do not discount his experience or the experience of his clients but as a clinician it is easy to be biased based on your in depth experience with clients. However, as a clinician, you only see a small portion of the population. I also believe that we should support ALL individuals and the choices they make. Although it did not work for Josh and Lolly, and for many understandable reasons it did not work out long term, it is inappropriate for strangers to impose values or direct life choices. Plus, someone could have told Josh all this when he married and he wouldn’t have listened. Why? Because he was in denial. We need to support the LGBTQ community by valuing their voices. We can’t do that if we pressure them in any way.
interesting because many commenters are imposing their ‘don’t do it Josh!’ values on to Josh here. Brutal.
I am a gay man who was married for thirty years. I have four wonderful children. I deeply feel all you have written. Unfortunately I didn’t face my decisions early enough. I had to fall apart completely. I committed a sexual crime which sent me to prison for ten years. My life was in shreds and my family was living in pain. Four years ago I was paroled. I have gone through many years of therapy just to get to the point where you are now. A year ago I married a wonderful man who my children accept as part of our family. We are healing.
I marvel at the process that you have been able to pursue. I wish I had had such courage. I know the years to come will bring all of you much happiness. Thank you for sharing this incredible moment with us.
I is very possible that I did not fully understand this blog post. The impression I get, is that you do not believe that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints is the true church. I get the impression that you did not sustain Thomas S. Monson as a Prorphet Seer and Revelation and that you do not sustain Russel M. Nelson as a Prophet of God.
I know you love God and I know He loves you. The impression I got from reading this blog was that you have given up on your temple covenants. That you no longer believe in the Proclamation to the World. That perhaps you believe that God will change His doctrine to allow same gender people into the Celestial Kingdom.
If any of your children are under 8, my question is….how will you baptize them? What if they need a blessing? Will you be able to watch them get married in the Temple if you are living with another man?
I know you want real true love. I know it exists. I know that God loves you. I know that you will do what is right for you and your family. May the Lord continue to guide you in the right and true path whatever that might be for you.
I know Russell M. Nelson is a Prophet of God. I know that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints is Christ’s church and that He is at the head and speaks through His prophets and Apostles.
There are so many things that we don’t understand. We don’t have all the answers. Please don’t give up on the Gospel of Jesus Christ. I know you will find the true love you are seeking.
Though I am straight, I do understand the feeling of being only 36 (I”m 36) and feeling the dread of living where I am for another 4 or 5 decades. There’s a lot more to that statement but I rather not share on this comments. But what keeps me going is the hope for eternal life and eternal marriage. What keeps me going is the words of ancient and modern day prophets. What keeps me going is wanting to return to my Father in Heaven and be more like Him.
Please don’t give up on the Gospel of Jesus Christ. It IS His Church. IN the name of Jesus Christ Amen
I am actually a gay man, and I have never seen a jot of evidence that straight men’s behavior toward gay men is related to their faith, whatsoever. You treat us badly because you imagine that it makes you look tough, to be homophobic and to treat gay men badly. You get some sense of dominance off of it. You feel a little bit more manly for a few seconds. If you are going to try to tell me that your religious faith is your primary motivator, then I have seen no evidence at all that you are telling the truth.
When a twelve year old kid finds out he’s gay, he is mortally terrified in ways you cannot possibly imagine, and that is the age when gay kids are most likely to actually hurt themselves, especially if they are alone and don’t have anyone they feel safe talking about it with. If you want to really feel like a man someday, then find a kid that feels afraid, and make him feel safe and understood. Just try it once, and I am pretty sure you will be hooked.
However, let me play with the idea that you are actually sincere and really do believe that your prophet’s words about gay people make even the least bit of sense.
What you need to try to understand is that gay men’s brains are physically different.
While few genes have been identified that influence this, the trait really doesn’t follow Mendelian genetics. What happens is that the hormonal balance in utero naturally fluctuates throughout pregnancy, but even with this, a male fetus that makes it to term and grows to adulthood will end up being heterosexual about 95% of the time. That’s a pretty strong percentage. That also leaves a few that are affected differently, though.
About 5% of the time, hormonal spikes happen to coincide with certain critical stages of prenatal neurological development, specifically certain parts of the limbic system. As a consequence, the parts of our brains that are developing at the time literally end up developing to resemble those of the opposite sex. This is a different part of our brains from those parts of our brains that are associated with gender-identity, but still, it constitutes a fairly big chunk of the limbic system. At a primal, innate, emotional level, then, we are, to a certain extent, actually designed in the same way as women.
In the conventional sense of the word, then, it is not technically correct to say that gay men are…well, men. That is, we are not straight men. We are gay men. A law designed for straight men, by a straight man, can never possibly be relevant to a gay man.
It would be like arresting a bird for jaywalking for flying over busy traffic against a light that was intended for pedestrians. It is just not applicable. It is insanity to pretend that it could ever be applicable.
Your prophet tried to come up with a special doctrine to govern gay men, but it just led to more gay LDS teenagers killing themselves. Whatever they did, it has resulted in catastrophe. When your policies are leading to people getting killed, then it’s time to go back to the drawing board.
Don’t be a bitch, Bill
I was totally with you until the Imagine Dragons part. What a horrible $*%& song. I’m sure they have musical talent, but they waste it all in uninspired arrangements and production just to gain a smidgen of extra commercial appeal. just like every other (%@* band nowadays.
The two of you and the family you have built are just beautiful, inside and out. To share your struggles and raw feelings about them in such an honest and thoughtful piece is….generous. Many would have kept their revelations to themselves, so kudos for having the courage to put yourselves out there again, no doubt helping countless people on their own journeys. Love and blessings to you!
I feel so much love and respect and hope for you both. Thank you for sharing all of this.
Hi Josh and Lolly. This obviously was an extremely difficult and heart-wrenching decision. I am in aw of your authenticity. I noticed that you both feel that God advocates your decision of divorce and even directed it. While not what you might expect the Lord to answer, I feel He does condone an end to marriages that are not in the best interest of the family. What I’m wondering is have you asked God if he condones homosexual sex and what was His answer? I noticed in a previous reply that someone found an intimate connection with a “gay best friend” without having sex. While I understand that you already have a best friend and what you feel your missing is that sexual connection with someone you’re actually attracted to, would a “gay best friend” alleviate much of the torture that comes with not being able to consummate a relationship? Do you feel you can consecrate homosexual sex to God, much like heterosexual Mormons feel they can consecrate their intimate relationship to God to further His purposes? I sincerely am not judging as I have no idea what this struggle is like. I am just truly trying to understand. What are your thoughts and feelings about this?
No, heterosexual Mormons cannot “consecrate their intimate relationship to God .” That would make God into a voyeur.
And I bet God is just as aroused by our sexuality as a normal parent changing a diaper. If there is a God, He created us and all our sexuality in the first place, so He is hardly in the same space as a voyeur.
If I may chime in, being in a gay relationship does not necessarily equate to having what id classically thought of as “gay sex.”
I am speaking from the standpoint of being a gay man, here: I share freely the fact that I am gay. Whether or not I and my husband “do the nasty” or how often is nobody’s business. I think it’s seriously gross to inquire unless you are our family doctor.
We are open about our romance, though. That we shout from the rooftops, literally, standing at the top of a parking garage and happily making fools of ourselves. We are very demonstrative most placed we go.
Try to put “gay” and “gay sex” in different places in your mind. One is socially acceptable to discuss as long as that person is out. The other, unless you are that couple’s family doctor, ewww!
Exactly. In general I find that the idea of gay male sex repulses straight men so having a church backing them up is perfect for them. Lesbian sex? Not so bothersome.
But yeah, no one’s business.
To the LDS folks commenting on this blog: What if year or a decade from now – there is an announcement stunning as the one in 1978 after which Bruce McConkie said: “Forget everything that I have said, or what President Brigham Young or President George Q. Cannon or whomsoever has said in days past that is contrary to the present revelation. We spoke with a limited understanding and without the light and knowledge that now has come into the world.” Who would have predicted in the 1960s or 1970s what Spencer Kimball would announce in 1978? Could it happen again in some manner with these issues? The truth is, none of us know the mind of God nor do any of us fully know the future. We do indeed see through a glass darkly.
Exactly. None of us knows the mind of God, so all we can do is trust the individual guidance He gives each of us, as this couple is doing.
As a non-Mormon, I am rather shocked by the amount of tremendously judgemental comments being written by Mormons and the bizarre theories about homosexuality being used as justification. just an observation.
Try growing up around conservative protestants. The Mormons are just currently a little bit misguided, but I see them as overall well-meaning. I think the Mormons are eventually going to come around because I think that, at heart, they have good intentions. Conservative protestants, though, are some talibangelicals, and instead of getting any better, I think they are going to just keep getting worse.
I listened to this song today, and just thought I’d share it as my testimony that I KNOW that Jesus Christ is our Lord, Savior, redeemer, and friend.
The Lord is my Shepherd;
no want shall I know.
I feed in green pastures;
safe-folded I rest.
He leadeth my soul where
the still waters flow,
Restores me when wand’ring,
redeems when oppressed,
Restores me when wand’ring,
redeems when oppressed.
Thru the valley and shadow
of death though I stray,
Since thou art my Guardian,
no evil I fear.
Thy rod shall defend me,
thy staff be my stay.
No harm can befall with
my Comforter near.
No harm can befall with
my Comforter near.
In the midst of affliction
my table is spread.
With blessings unmeasured
my cup runneth o’er.
With perfume and oil thou
anointest my head.
Oh, what shall I ask of
thy providence more?
Oh, what shall I ask
of thy providence more?
Thanks for sharing Jen. Following the Savior and His gospel and enduring to the end will always be the better way.
I just want to send love to you both. I have followed you since your coming-out post went viral (I was the one who asked whether you would defy the Mormon Church ban on same-sex marriage and financing attempts to keep it illegal, and you answered me — I was raised Jewish, not Mormon, so there are some huge differences doctrinally and how our religions operate in the public sphere since Judaism has no single authority for either scriptural interpretation or social action, and I have struggled a lot of my life with issues about how my own religion (re)constructs itself and operates in a post-Holocaust, post-Six Day War world). I find you both incredibly brave to have chosen to air and to live your struggles in public, to help other people, and to be able to acknowledge when you believe you were wrong and when you were sorry, which is still unusual to hear from any sort of public figure. I’ve seen some of the attacks on you, your characters and your beliefs from all sides of the sociopolitical spectrum and have been so impressed at how rarely you respond with anger even when people said atrocious things about your children.
Hey I’m a lesbian; thank you both for sharing this. I needed this a lot, I think.
I hope the future brings happiness to you and your families
I read this over a week ago, and then I attended a meeting about depression. I realized that the challenges you describe are what they describe for someone who is suffering from depression. I hope you are working with a mental health professional. Divorce might or might not help with a depression. I do not seek to judge you or your challenges. I hope you get help and that you are able to find happiness and peace.
Josh and Lolly, I remember reading your blog post five years ago. Looking back, I see that my heart has gone on such a similar journey to yours over the last five years on the subject of homosexuality. I was raised in the church and I had such a deeply embedded homophobia that was so wrapped up in tolerance and “love” (of the sinner, but certainly not the sin), that it was hard for me to even identify the actual hate and fear I felt. Now I feel so much lighter, so much more loving. I can truly see every single human being as beautiful, worthwhile, and deserving of love. I am so happy for my journey, and for yours. It’s like a sigh of relief to finally let go of the hate and say, “it’s okay! Being gay is okay!” Thank you for your posts and for being so open and honest with the world. I hope more and more people will continue to journey down the path of love and that more light can be shed on the harmful (purposeful or not) teachings and policies of the church. My heart aches for any young person who grows up believing horrible things about themselves. This needs to stop. The both of you are such forces for goodness and light. I wish you all the best.
Josh, I’m queer. I was raised Mormon, and for a long time I was very devoted to the church as the only form of guidance I had in my life. I left because of that same thing you (and I) have said in prayer so many times. “Something is wrong. I don’t know what is right, but something is so, so wrong.” Even now, I still believe in much of the doctrine. I’ve been praying and looking for answers for years now, and this post—knowing that a firm believer in the church feels exactly what I do—is the closest I’ve come to anything like peace on the matter. It doesn’t fix the harm that’s still being done by the church, but it’s nice not to be alone. Thank you so much.
I’m so sorry that this has been such a painful and heartbreaking journey for the two of you. I hope that everything works out so that both of you find the relationships you want and deserve.
Thank you so much
You’re listening to the wrong spirit, because the Bible says that God hates divorce and he only allows it in cases of adultery. Since I assume neither of you have been unfaithful, then what you have done is a serious offense against God.
I stayed with my gay husband until he passed away from natural causes. Yes, it was hard. But if we had even had the level of deep friendship you two have it would have been enough. You certainly have had more sex than we ever did. So, I was granted a blessing for staying in my marriage. My sex drive went away.
Platonic love does not look like your lives together. Platonic love does not hold each other on the couch.
You are confusing sexual love and romantic love. Sexual love fades. But even in trying to remain as a family, in your homestead idea, you are showing her ROMANTIC love.
And you’re destroying a beautiful thing in this divorce as well as listening to the wrong spirit.
I would like to respectfully disagree with this. I went through a divorce a few years ago, something I put off for many years. There was no adultery involved, but there was emotional abuse from my ex-husband to me, along with long periods of him traveling for work, working longer hours than he needed, and generally neglecting me and our family. I put up with this for a long time. He suffers from bipolar and had an absolutely awful childhood. He used this as an excuse for his bad behavior, and I bought into it. I somehow felt if I just loved him a little more, he would get through his emotional issues. If I was just a little better wife, he would love me more. It would be wrong of me to leave him when he’d already had such a rough time. But the verbal assaults and unrealistic expectations he placed on me just grew. I still hung in there. I was miserable. I would fantasize about him dying in his sleep so I could be relieved of my daily hell. But I never considered divorce, because I thought it was against God’s will. Eventually it was he who asked me for a divorce. I insisted on counseling and fought fiercely to save our marriage. But he would not budge. During this time, my relationship with God grew, and I found myself in the scriptures and in prayer almost constantly. I distinctly remember a voice coming into my heart. “Let him go.” I couldn’t believe that was acceptable. We had made commitments to each other. But it just kept coming to me. Eventually I gave in and said, “Lord, you really want me to get divorced?” A feeling of confirmation came over me like I’ve never felt about anything else in my life. And then I heard the words, “You’ve given him all you can. You deserve to be happy.” So I agreed to the divorce and never looked back. I have since found a man who loves me with all his heart yet holds God above me. I have never experienced love like this, and I know this is what God wanted for me. So I don’t think we can say He only wants this for us in cases of adultery. I think what He wants for us is happiness.
Dear Josh and Lolly,
I am so, so glad that you each have found yourselves an arrangement that allows each of you to find genuine happiness and the love you want. I remember being unsettled from the implications of the first post years ago. I remember crying for the idea of you, both of you, trapping yourselves like that and trying to hard to believe you were truly, fully, and inarguably happy. The stories you related of others in the same situation break my heart, and I feel an overwhelming amount of joy that you are giving yourselves the freedoms you deserve.
But I have a question. In multiple places, you remark how we are not made to go without romantic love, and that platonic love is never enough. Yet you do, several times, refer to the LGBT+ community as LGBTQIA… what do you each, personally, believe the “A” to stand for?
I’m a 19 year old cis female. I’m LDS- I love the gospel with all my heart, regardless of the ways some people interpret it. And I am also both aromantic and asexual. I have absolutely no sex drive, though I’m not opposed to or repulsed by sex. I only possess one kind of love, and have nearly always been aware of this- my love does not differentiate in type, only in intensity. I have never felt romantic love for anyone and I have never truly wanted to. My family, my friends, and my Father in Heaven have always been enough for me.
However, I spent years in my early and middle teens devastated by this. Forcing myself into romantic and, yes, sexual situations, begging myself and God to let something finally click and allow me to love any of my male friends, whom I adored with my entire heart, in the way that I knew I was supposed to. No, I never had to suppress myself in the same way that a gay or lesbian teen might, but I was consumed with shame over this part of myself- which was clearly a defect, broken, a symptom of my sins, or even a punishment. I was wracked with guilt, as each time I attempted to form another romantic connection, the day eventually came when it was undeniable that my partner felt something for me that I did not reciprocate, and that I couldn’t claim to care for them any differently than I did my other close friends.
I’m not trying to call you out on your opinions, I promise I’m not, because I absolutely believe that the majority of the world is wired for romance and I’m not opposed to romantic relationships. If I ever met someone I cared deeply for who cared for me in the same way, or never made me feel guilty or cruel for “withholding” my nonexistent romantic love from them, I would be capable of marriage and even, presumably, children. But I would feel just as happy, fulfilled, and loved without a relationship of that nature as I would with one. Obviously, the pain I face as aroace in the Church is adjacent to that of gay and lesbian members but certainly not the same, and some of the parallels you make and lines you’ve drawn out in this post have brought old doubts and fears to the surface.
And that is my question. If we are not made to be without romantic attraction, if we are wired for romance and without it, the only eventuality is depression or even death- where does that place me? Am I still broken? Am I the aberration, the one against nature, the one with my own wires crossed? I have always felt abnormal, wrong- but it’s never been because of how I feel, only how I know I am supposed to. Do you really think that I’m doomed to unhappiness because of this? I’m a little shaky to think of this at all.
Again, I am so glad both of you are working to place yourselves on a new path you believe will bring you a more genuine and complete joy.
-Mckenzie
I know enough about asexuality that I know that homophobia is really founded chiefly on nonheterophobia.
I am a demisexual of sorts. The way I see a man’s body is affected by how I feel about who that person is on the inside. If he is a beautiful person, he seems as graceful to me as a dressage stallion, and his voice makes me melt into a puddle. If he seems like a rude and untrustworthy person, he seems to be like a hunched and ugly goblin, and I start noticing every defect in his appearance. I could never be attracted to a man that it is obvious to me is unwholesome, since I cannot notice the things about him that make him good-looking if my feelings toward him make me feel cynical.
I used to be more cynical toward people, but as I have grown older, I have grown less judgmental toward others. As I have grown more open-minded with age, rather than less, others around me have become more attractive, not less.
Still, I spent enough time not being attracted to anybody around me that I know very well that homophobia has nothing at all to do with gay sex. Nobody ever was cruel to me for having gay sex, just for not being straight.
Ironically, when I started dealing with rude straight men’s rude questions about my sexuality by explaining to them in detail why I don’t always want to have anal sex with a man because of how time-consuming and messy and gross it is to clean oneself out enough for it to not be unpleasant and how much I hate fasting and eating nothing but jello, they stopped bringing up my perceived sexuality, so I was able to talk more about the aspects of being gay that I liked to talk about: gay romance.
But yes, what I know about asexuality is that being asexual can be like having all of the abuse that goes with being gay without any of the fun gay sex that goes with being gay. I know that the issues of asexuals in society are largely identical to those of other LGBT, and I know that asexuals are under the same vicious family pressure to go off and get married and have children when maybe that part of life is not really for them.
WWD: Reading this today was relieving. It’s always somehow affirming to hear from people- regardless of whether they are also somewhere on the asexual or aromantic spectrums- who validate and commiserate how.. unpleasant it can be. I’m happy that you’ve found some ways to make yourself more comfortable with yourself and even, it sounds, with those around you. I hope you’re having a wonderful day somewhere.
I wish you all happiness. This is not an easy path either, but you both sound like such good people that I can’t imagine you won’t find a peace. I read your original post and this one and will ah you were in my ward so I could get to know you both better.
Wow. I applaud it all. I applaud your marriage and with some regret applaud your divorce. I applaud your willingness to share your story, even if it opens you up to ridicule or worse both from people you know and those who don’t know you at all– even after reading your explanation.
I think in a way that your greatest failure is just beginning– I don’t believe that you will ever really be able to divorce. A couple can, but it’s harder for a family to accomplish, and whatever its imperfections, and what family is without?–none, you seem to have a great family.
I wish you all the best
Mike
How is this decision defended biblically? Not shaming, just don’t see it. I am all for living authentic and even think the church has a million things wrong on divorce. But I can’t find a biblical truth that says this is ok. Am I missing something?
yes, context. Context of what the times were when those stories were written. And also what was meant in the original language. If you are only going by what your bishop tells you or what the higher ups tell you, then yes, you are missing something. Study the context of the times the stories were written and also the original Hebrew and Greek. It will be eye opening and life changing.
Amy, the two greatest laws in heaven are Love God and Love Thy Neighbor As Thyself. In this world, we are completely unable to keep all the laws. The Pharisees thought they could do it, but Christ had the sharpest words for them, not for the Samaritan woman at the well living in adultery, the woman caught in adultery, the thief next to Him on the cross, nor the publicans or any of the other sinners He encountered. No, his wrath was for the Pharisees and Sadducees who judged others according to the law and forgot about the first two laws of heaven. “Generation of vipers”, “Ye hypocrites”, “whitened sepulchers”, and other phrases were aimed at the believers, not the sinners.
Very frankly, I’d rather be a adulterer with love in my heart than to be a law-abiding Pharisee. We all know what the Savior said to each of those groups. I see two people struggling to be the best they can be, and if they cannot live all the laws perfectly in this situation, they at least are keeping the two greatest laws to the best of their mortal ability. It’s on us to not be Pharisees and judge them. You may not be in that situation yourself, and you may even make a different decision were you to be in that situation, but the Bible is very clear as to which group is better in the Lord’s eyes.
Just my thought. 🙂
The crime of the Pharisees was that they were truly hypocrites. They professed to keep the laws, and then did not. Kind of like Christians today who profess to love Jesus and their fellow men, shout praises and talk the talk, but then break the Lord’s commandments and put their own selfish desires ahead of what is best for God’s children, even their own children. Understanding that commandments are blessings, that they really are about love and are for teaching us what love is, will help us come closer to God.
What does it mean to love God and love another anyway? What did the Lord tell us to do if we love him?
Yes, He asks us to keep His commandments if we love Him. Yet, it is impossible to keep ALL of them ALL the time. He asks us for our best effort and is incredibly merciful when we fail because of our mortal weaknesses and misunderstandings that happen through individual circumstances.
This gets trickier when we can point to certain obvious commandments like the law of chastity, theft, murder, and the like as better indications of someone’s individual righteousness than how much they love others since the latter is easily created as a facade. I know people personally who make a great face to the world and their religious fellows about how righteous they are, but behind the scenes, they are absolutely awful, yet they have broken none of the obvious commandments. I watch these people attack and undermine others who have sinned in these more obvious ways, and yet I know many of THOSE people too, and they are far more righteous than the former, in terms of love.
My main point in this situation is that we simply do not have enough data to judge whether Josh and Lolly have given it their best – from what I read, it certainly seems this way and I am going to give him the benefit of the doubt.
While we like to point to a concrete commandment that is being broken here, at the same time, it is entirely possible that they simply do not have the strength to go on, and despite popular belief, God does not always strengthen us in those circumstances. Many times, He lets us fail because we gain deeper appreciation of the Atonement, vaster patience and compassion for other sinners and humans, and a more profound connection to Him when we crash and burn through a difficult trial than when we always triumph successfully.
So at the end of the day, yup, there’s a commandment being broken. Nope, I have absolutely no clue the full circumstances around that commandment, nor do I know for sure that a lower commandment isn’t being broken to keep a higher one (something God does on a regular basis on this fallen earth of ours), so I withhold judgment, hope the best for J&L, and trust that God isn’t up there with his hands on his cheeks in shock, saying, “Oh my goodness, I didn’t see this coming! What am I going to do now?”
That means I can trust that He’ll turn the entire situation to the good of all involved in the long run. As I said elsewhere, God *always* plays the long game, and He’ll take all kinds of losses in a battle in order to win the war. The war in J&L’s life is not over, so it’s hardly time to be calling the score now.
What you are missing is that your Bible says nothing at all about gay romance, just gay sex. If Josh and his future romantic partner choose to “do the nasty” with each other, then that is a private matter.
As a gay man, I will admit to you that gay sex can be one of the nastiest things that you can imagine, but that is not the same as romance. For gay men IN PARTICULAR, gay love and gay sex are very different things. We can have sex with men that we don’t even particularly like as people AND ENJOY IT. For us, romance and sex are in different worlds.
Of course, we will most likely end up having sex with our romantic partners, but we might also play a video game together, snuggle in front of a favorite movie together, go bowling together, or do any of thousands of different things together. Sex is just something we have a NATURAL DRIVE to do, no matter what you might think of it, and our romantic partners happen to be…well, convenient.
But whether or not Josh and his future romantic partner have sex is their business, and they have every right to stay perfectly and completely mum about that. The only thing you really need to know is that they love each other very much, and it would be a sin to come between them. There is nothing else that is really any of your business unless you are their physician…or unless they choose to share it with you.
William, thank you for your posts. I find them the most interesting part of this entire blog because of your insights on a gay man’s psyche. I am re-reading them several times to try to understand it better. I hope you don’t mind a few uninformed questions (ignore them if you wish!). I think I understand the reasons for self-loathing, especially of a 12-year-old who first realizes he is gay in heterosexual society. I can imagine feeling the same way if society were reversed. But I’m clueless on how your psyche differs fundamentally from heteros. In your experience is there a certain significant percentage of gay men who abstain from gay sex because of the mess, and are just happy with the romance? Also, how would you (the “typical” gay man) feel about having sex with a female, like Josh described? That was a big surprise to me. I had always assumed it would be similar to how I would feel if I had to have sex with a guy. At best I expect it would make me physically violently sick, and if trapped long term maybe suicidal. Josh makes it sound like it’s actually fine and good, minus the passion and emotion. Also, how do you describe the difference between the longing for intimacy of a single celibate but sexually motivated woman, and the longing by a gay guy who is also determined to abstain? I really don’t understand why it would become so painful for a gay guy in a mixed orientation marriage except maybe in the context of your separation of romance from sex. I don’t feel like it would be increasingly painful for me to be stuck in a totally non-sexual marriage. Tempting and frustrating yes, but actually psychologically harmful I don’t see it. I also know two hetero women who live together but would rather be married to men. Extremely bright, great personalities, and better than average looks, but somehow still single. They are both engaged in good careers and are very social and socially well adjusted. No pain that I can see there, although I’m sure there must be some. I know they would prefer marriage. But women seem to do HUGELY better as singles than hetero men. A normal hetero man living alone will go bonkers and in fact has a lower life expectancy. We at least need companionship. Thanks. Again feel free to ignore if I’m out of line.
I am wondering the same thing. No where is this taught in the Bible.
Sara, The Bible doesn’t teach to not jump headfirst into an empty pool, either. Just because something is missing from the Bible doesn’t mean it isn’t a truth somewhere else in life. Heck, look at all the new doctrines taught in the books of the New Testament after the Savior died – did the fact that they weren’t revealed until later mean they weren’t a law until they were revealed? Hardly. The Bible contains SOME of God’s teachings and laws, but it is hardly comprehensive. That would take an entire library, not just a single book.
Don’t get me wrong, the Bible is wonderful and it teaches some amazing things, but it is still just a single volume (or rather, multiple disconnected volumes gathered into a single bound book) and certainly not the full amount of all of God’s knowledge, understanding, laws, and the like. If you believe that, God is pretty small, and the knowledge of man eclipses God’s knowledge by a long shot.
It would be great if you would once and for all come out with the truth, that religion is poison, that the lies of religion cause nothing but pain and suffering, and that the best thing for all people to do would be for them pursue their spirituality outside of institutionalized religion.
That may be your experience and your truth, but it isn’t universal. You’re trying to force your beliefs and experience across everyone, which isn’t fair, and is exactly the same things homophobes do to gays except in a different direction. Same behavior, same problems. I can totally accept that this has been your experience, but mine has been very different. While I am able to honestly assess the issues my religion creates, it has been vastly net positive in my life and the lives of most of those I know, not net negative.
So, no, religion is not universally poison. It has been in many cases historically and perhaps personally for you, but that doesn’t mean the entire religious world is nothing but mind control and poison. Don’t take the stance that when others make assumptions about you, that’s bad, but when you make assumptions, that’s OK. It’s hugely hypocritical.
Yes, because that statement right there feels so kind, loving, accepting, forgiving, spiritual, generous, and just overall warm and beautiful, it MUST be true.
Except, no.
“Nothing but pain and suffering” cannot be true. I have experienced friendship, love, acceptance, assistance in time of need. Organized religion may not be perfect, and it may need some changes, but it has its purposes, and it can be beneficial.
You could make the same claim about government.
This is one of the most incredibly heartbreaking posts I have ever read. First off, it is obvious that you both love each other deeply. Why would you choose to rip apart a marriage that is built on love and commitment? Your family is beautiful and I can’t imagine the heartbreak your children will experience because of this divorce. Secondly, I’ve seen a lot of posts lately about how we should be looking for fulfillment for ourselves as our deepest goal in life, to live authentically as it were. I’m sorry but I haven’t seen this concept taught in the Bible. The Bible teaches instead that our inner desires are most often not in accordance with God, but selfish and degraded so I think it is teaching us that we should not always follow our hearts but follow Jesus instead. Take up our crosses and follow the Master. Christians throughout history have had lots of times where they were not experiencing the best of times to put it lightly. Thirdly, what marriage doesn’t have some times where the couple doesn’t feel completely fulfilled because that’s just life sometimes?
So let me ask you a question – at what point do institutions become more important than people? One of the biggest institutions of the Savior’s time was the Sabbath – the existing leadership in the church made it in incredible burden, making it terrible and limiting in so many ways. Do you recall what the Savior said to them about it? “Was the Sabbath made for man or man for the Sabbath?”
In today’s world, I see marriage (a wonderful and noble institution) turning into the same kind of limiting, burdening institution that the Sabbath was back then. “Was marriage made for man or man for marriage?”
I agree that struggle is a part of marriage – it is not designed to be bliss by a long shot, but there is a certain point where maintaining it becomes very destructive to the individuals involved. Would you prefer that Josh and Lolly stay together until he commits suicide, and then say that he still made the better choice? Or is it better that they realistically ascertain where they are at (even if that place is arrived at by deception, misunderstandings or just plain human weakness as long as they are doing their best to be honest about it) and then make the best decision for the whole family in the long-term?
Many marriages just need to weather the storms, work through their issues, etc. I’ve seen many marriages heal and grow through those storms, so I’m not advocating ditching a marriage the instant you’re not feeling as happy as you think you deserve. However, I know for a fact that the Lord does not intend marriage to be a cage, with both parties just hanging in there for the sake of keeping the institution whole while both people devolve and become less and less joyful.
It is not our job to determine for someone else when they hit that point. We don’t have all the facts of Josh and Lolly’s experience, but I know that the Lord will allow couples to divorce when the end result is much better for everyone involved than if they stay just for the sake of keeping the institution alive as though that institution is more important than the individual souls of the people.
Growth is the most important goal of this existence – if they both grow from it, even if it’s a mistake, then it’s a long-term win even if it causes pain in the short-term. God *always* plays the long game.
I truly appreciate your thoughts and I do not have all of the answers to all of your questions by any means. I do know for a few things though. Following our hearts is not safe, because the Bible says so. It says the heart is desperately wicked. As for the horrible struggle people like Josh experience of being so hopeless that one considers suicide, that is a deep heart issue and can only be healed through a close relationship with Jesus. Finding another partner is not going to fill that type of void. There is hope only in Jesus, not in anyone else. Lastly, as I said before, the life of a true Christian is not easy and perfect like people like us to think. Jesus said we will have trials in this life and they will get worse the closer we get to Him. The true Christian is at odds with the world, not embracing the things that the world does. A Christian is willing to give up everything for Christ even if that means dying for Him. I’m not seeing this being taught anymore by most Christians.
Agreed that a partner will not fill the void, but I know from personal experience that having a terrible partner vs having a wonderful partner can open the door to blessings that could not come otherwise. Partners have a MASSIVE impact on our lives, and God uses partners as a way to bless us. Not saying that Josh or Lolly were terrible partners at all, but it’s not black and white, ie, if you have Jesus, you don’t need anyone else! That’s certainly not true – we get blessed constantly by others in our lives even after we embrace Him, and we need them, too! Just not in the same way. Having Jesus does not place us into isolation because we no longer need anyone else. The second commandment is to love others, which would be a strange commandment to give if the first commandment made us above the need for others.
Also, to be clear, I am not defending Josh and Lolly’s decision – I am defending their right to make that decision without armchair quarterbacks telling them that they know better how they should live their lives. They’ve clearly put tons of thought, prayer, and the like into this decision, and even if they are wrong, they are going to gain experience from it and learn and grow in ways that are important to their growth.
Dying for the Lord happens when we are put in a situation where we are being told by someone else to deny our faith or be killed. Not exactly the same circumstance when suicide is part of the process. Sacrifice in general is a critical part of the Lord’s plan, but I also know the Lord does not ask us to sacrifice our self-respect, to put ourselves into abusive marriages (there may be exceptions to this, but they are outliers), or otherwise cause harm to ourselves just for the sake of sacrificing.
The sacrifices He asks tend to be more personal and lead us to a better place. I divorced my abusive, manipulative wife, all while being told by those around me that I was breaking my covenants with God. Pffft. Hardly. I have way more connection to God in my current marriage where we constantly seek to bless each other than I had in my “sacrificing” to stay with my ex for as long as I did. We sacrifice for each other constantly and it brings great joy to us both, which is how true sacrifice is supposed to be. Covenants with God are not supposed to be a cage, a trap used by the Adversary to force us into a false conflict between us and God when there is no such conflict.
I wonder if in time Lolly would also find another man who is deeply attracted to her, and her to him si that she may experience with him the adoring and beautiful attachment she was always intended to?
Uh yes.the comment designed to instill fear that she won’t find someone and should reconsider a divorce.
I’ve been thinking. Thinking thinking. Right now, millions of people are living and dying in refugee camps, millions more have no access to food or clean water. Women in certain countries are treated like cattle. Some folks in the U.S. can’t afford healthcare and are dying. Thousands of children in the U.S. aren’t getting enough food. On and on. And what I see here are a bunch of religious folks who claim to be in God’s only true church on earth, and they are lecturing Josh and Lolly on how they are surely going to be alone in eternity, that they are going against god. They are offering half-baked theories about homosexuality. Hey, one true church folks, maybe spend your time helping to help the world not commenting on a blog of someone you have never met and telling them how shameful they are. It’s gross.
Thx so much for sharing this real life story I’m convinced there are similar ones out there that will not be shared but I pray they hear your story and have hope now like never before I pray the Best of Everything to you and your Family…Alfredia an advocate
This is sad and heartbraking. You’ve been deceived into thinking that your selfish behavior is justified because God wants you to be happy. The truth is, He does want you to be happy, but you will never truly be at peace and experience lasting joy by living this life. And the real tragedy of it all is the 4 beautiful girls who will suffer from this for a very long time.
It is indeed sad. But what allows you to judge others and their painfully-arrived-at decision as ‘selfish behaviour’? You are not God, and it is not Christian or godly to judge. ‘I judge no one,’ said my role model, Jesus.
To back this up somewhat, judging is when we prophecy about what we think will happen because of someone else’s decision, or when we decide we know what the final end is of another person based on their decision.
So Amy, those 4 little girls may end up being much happier because of this than sadder, you just don’t know.
And perhaps Josh WILL have happiness in this life despite doing something that you are convinced will bring misery. There are so many more factors to God’s plan than a straight-forward “Keep the commandments or else” approach. As we stretch and grow, we discover Him in places we had no idea He was at, and we find His love so much deeper and life-changing than we imagined. This has happened to me so many times and after some crazy experiences in my life that I simply stopped assuming I have any idea what His plan is for any particular individual.
As a concrete example of this from an LDS perspective: I don’t know if you are LDS or not, but if you aren’t, you are likely aware that we believe in a prophet that guides us, and we give great weight to his words when he speaks, especially when he speaks over the pulpit very clearly as a prophet.
Many years ago, President Gordon B Hinckley challenged the church to read the Book of Mormon from beginning to end within some time frame. I was already studying the Book of Mormon in a particular place and I felt no real pull to his words, but I decided to be obedient and just do it. I did not pray for confirmation, I just did it. It was frankly the emptiest reading of the Book of Mormon I have ever gone through. Nothing jumped out at me, I gained nothing from the experience, and when it was done, I prayed and asked why. I was told that, had I asked first, I would have been instructed to continue in my current study because that’s where the lessons I needed at the moment were.
But wait! I was told by a living prophet to read the Book of Mormon in this other way, how could it be that the Lord would instruct me otherwise? Because the Lord maintains the ability to command His individual children according to their individual needs, despite any commandments or prophetic instruction to the contrary. Barring specific guidance otherwise, we keep the commandments and follow our prophet, but I have learned that we have no idea when the Lord will instruct a child to do something contrary to what He would command other of His children to do because His end goal is our happiness, and He will take us on a journey that will achieve that happiness, no matter how many side roads we end up taking.
So maybe Josh is wrong, maybe he is right, but those of us on the outside HAVE NO IDEA. We can point to commandments, but Abraham broke commandments at the Lord’s behest. So did Nephi (if you are LDS, you’ll get the reference). Let them make their decision without judging their future happiness or eternal salvation. If you are right, time will prove you right and you wouldn’t’ve needed to say a word. If you are wrong, then time will prove you wrong and it would’ve been better to say nothing.
At the end of the day, reserve judgment for God, love them, and don’t be afraid to ask hard questions, like the ones about asexuality, heterosexuals feeling like their marriages don’t have that spark and so what about them, and the like. But make sure you stay away from that judging thing, it’ll get you into more trouble at the last day than breaking the law of chastity.
Well put. If we read this, trying to learn truth by empathizing with another’s experience (which they are very generous to share) instead of looking for fuel to make us “right” we will see that this story is far from over. Now is not the time for final judgement. Now is the time to learn. These wonderful people are doing it and being honest about it. How rare! How beautiful! What a treasure! How many people do you know that are willing to not only be truly honest and genuine with themselves, but also brave enough to lay it all bare for us to learn from too? Keep asking the hard questions, not to stir up contention or prove yourself right, but for truly trying to understand. We only get to truth together, not in spite of each other.
Just wondering if you beautiful people know the book “Goodbye, I Love You” by Carol Lynn Pearson? If you haven’t read it, you really should their story (LDS, gay man in a straight marriage, man and woman deeply love each other) is extremely similar to yours!
Thank you for your genuineness and bravery. You have opened my heart to better understand love as a whole. I have been shying away from the conflict in my heart that I have felt between my religion and trying to truly understand same sex attraction. I am so very heterosexual, but I was never comfortable with anyone trying to tell someone else what’s in their heart. My religion has taught me that self-actualization is the very purpose of existence. That is what I believe and ultimately where my faith lies. While I believe very strongly that self control is a huge part of this process, I also have a sense that what we are spiritually is where we start from and these are the deepest, most profound parts of ourselves that may manifest through hormonal reactions but are rooted much deeper and actualize before our bodily responses. This spiritual understanding of ourselves is strictly between our creator and ourselves. We can and should be able to express them without fear. And by “we” I mean human beings. I use the term same sex attraction, not because I am opposed to calling anyone “gay” but because I don’t feel like anyone should define themselves on just one trait. We are all on many spectrums of variety. This may be a part of who you are, but it does not, and should not ever define you. You are a human being, just like me.
You have a lot of comments here. I don’t know if this one will ever get read by Josh and Lolly.
Josh, you are a beautiful person, and so is Lolly. Still, your friend’s unintentional message was wrong. Your homosexuality is not an eternal trait. It is part of a fallen world, fallen flesh. In the resurrection, of which you were given a testimony on your mission to Venezuela, this longing to be physically with other men, no matter how attractive you find them now, will go away. You can either find yourself not having those feelings at all, or any others of a sexual nature, in a telestial sphere by giving into those temptations here and not repenting, or having the kind God will give you as an exalted son in His kingdom with Lolly. In that realm, you will experience a fullness of joy. Here, and in the continuation of the telestial realm, you will not.
I am a man with homosexual tendencies married to a beautiful woman. I, in my own way, know the torture you speak of. Yet it can be swallowed up in the joy of Christ, and the joy of an eternal marriage. It has gotten better and I am not lying to myself by holding myself to God’s standard and following His plan. Instead of being “authentic” by being true to a fleshy desire, be truly authentic by acting as a son of the Most High, Who would, and did, go to any length to support you and help you make your marriage work and change your heart, and not necessarily your sexual proclivities in this life. You are not entitled to romantic attachment here. That was never promised. And your only other choice is not death, no matter how you feel at times or what the statistics say. Your children, though, are entitled to a home, raised by their parents in a Christ centered environment; a home that you already chose for them. Do not think you can make it work any other way. You cannot. You do not have that ability. While God can transform a bad situation into a good one for the innocent and penitent, you are setting yourself up for failure here, for yourself and your children. Do not be deceived by false doctrine. Only you know your feelings and thoughts. Yet Korihor and many others were deceived because what they were taught was pleasing to the carnal mind. It was prophesied that even the very elect would be deceived in this day. You are the very elect. I plead with you to tread even more carefully than you have. You are dealing with eternal lives.
I love you both. I have followed your story over the last five years. Don’t let it end here. I beg of you. I know it seems audacious for me to be saying these things since I don’t know you personally. I do know the truth though. I do know you can make it if you endure this storm (and possibly many others to come). In the end, you have the hope of a glorious resurrection and eternal progress and offspring. You think your joy in your children is great now?
For those of you who are angered by this doctrine and insist that I am trouncing upon their tender feelings etc. I would implore you to not be deceived either. The world, even with all its science, is not greater than the wisdom of God. And He does reveal His secrets to His servants, the prophets, imperfect though they may be. They are not persecuting Josh or anyone else. They are communicating the will of God to His children. Remember what your father told you once, Josh: Leave their correction to the Lord. Our duty is to obey. Don’t let your pride convince you there is a better way. There isn’t.
I truly love you and that is why I tell you my witness of these things. It will be an error of monumental proportions to break your family up and turn on sacred and holy covenants you have made just so you can experience romantic attachment when it is contrary to the commandments of the Lord, who loves you, and will save you even from the hell you have been in.
Do not be deceived. Satan is that good at what he does. God is infinitely better. Let God take charge here. I do not feel His voice in the words you have written. But only you can know.
Also, I don’t believe you have done damage by trying to be faithful and demonstrating that and talking about it in your Club Unicorn post. If people took what you said and hurt others with it, the sin be upon them. You were expressing a viewpoint; you said as much and frequently. While tragic, a person would truly be very immature, out of their right mind, or just plain stupid to take an opinion of someone else as gospel truth. I’m sorry that you feel you were in error. I fear you are in error here.
I truly wish you happiness. Especially for the sake of your little ones. You will not find it in sin.
I appreciate your courage and valiance in speaking truth Ethan, even though Josh and Lolly may not read it, and even if they did, it nay land on deaf ears. I have been concerned what the Weed’s have written my lead some who are vulnerable in the wrong direction, and away from God. I appreciate the many, who out of love, concern, and their commitment to follow the living Christ, have shared their stories and spoke their truths. We all, having been warned, need to do that. Thanks again.
Ethan, you are making the strong assumption that God always buoys us up in our trials, that if we just PRAY hard enough, we’ll be able to successfully navigate this world without falling to sin, error, and the like.
I know from many personal experiences that this is simply not true. I can point to multiple times in my life where I *begged* the Lord to help me through a trial, and He did not. I ended up crashing and burning instead.
However, when I look back at those times, I see His wisdom – I gained strength, humility, a deeper connection to Him, and, more importantly, experience that taught me to not judge another’s experience. Had He sustained me so I didn’t fall, I would have lost all of those more valuable things.
It sounds as though you’ve been sustained in your trial thus far, and that’s fabulous! Keep it up!
However, it’s folly to assume that because the Lord helped YOU through YOUR trial that He would do the identical thing to Josh in his. Clearly, Josh is having a different experience, and I am pretty sure it’s not because of a lack or loss of faith. Rather, he is being forced to reframe his own life and understanding of how things work, which is precisely the kind of thing God does. He allows us to have less-than-Celestial experiences in this life so we know from our own experience the good and the evil, and then we have the ability to choose one side or the other.
Josh is frankly unexperienced in allowing himself to act on his sexual preference. If he is totally wrong in this, the Lord is allowing it for the greater good, and in later years, Josh and Lolly will be able to look back and see what they’ve gained through pain and sorrow and joy and experience.
And THAT’S the Lord’s plan.
Amen, Ian!
Ian, thank you for your thoughts.
I would never, ever, accuse Josh of having a lack of faith in dealing with his trials. I am not suggesting he try to “pray away the gay” or anything of the like. I’m not suggesting he hasn’t pleaded with the Lord more deeply than I ever have to buoy him up to no avail. I have no idea what he has done, or what he is doing, to deal with this other than what he has stated.
My only intention in writing this, is to plead with them to not give up in what seems to be the greatest tempest they have yet faced. I have tremendous compassion for him in this thing. I have considered taking my life on many occasions and have waded through deep, deep depression because of my own challenges. Maybe he feels at the end of his rope, and so does Lolly. This might feel hopeless to them and they might believe the only way for them to experience real happiness is to abandon what they hoped would work and hasn’t. Perhaps they truly believe there are no miracles left for them because they have gone to the brink and have found nothing there to rescue them. If he goes this way, I have great understanding.
Yet, they can choose something else. It is in our utter extremity that we can come to really see God’s power.
Josh: I don’t know your heart, I don’t know where you are at. If you feel let down by Jesus because you are at this place in your life, I hate to say that I understand that feeling in my own way.
But.
I think you know in your heart of hearts, that Jesus knows where you’re at perfectly and he knows, perfectly, how to help you through it. And if you have to wait a little longer, you will not regret it. Are you suffering? Surely. I can’t deny that. So suffer with Him who suffered for you. Go to Gethsemane with Him and pour out your soul unto death, until that is, you feel like that is all that is left for you. Don’t do it hoping for or expecting anything other than whatever succor He has for you. In other words, give up yourself, sacrifice yourself. Not physically, but spiritually. That is what He is asking, but upon His altar, not yours, and not Ba’al’s.
He said to Joseph Smith: Behold, I have seen your sacrifices, and will forgive all your sins; I have seen your sacrifices in obedience to that which I have told you. Go, therefore, and I make a way for your escape, as I accepted the offering of Abraham of his son Isaac. (D&C 132:50)
Yes, Joseph’s ultimate escape was physical death, like many martyrs before him. I don’t know what yours is, but whatever it is, if it is ordained by your creator, it is the best thing you can offer.
Does it feel impossible? Walk into the impossible, and you will find Him there. Of that I am certain.
I love you, Josh. I am thankful to be your brother. Please don’t be offended by my imperfect words. Just believe me that trusting in God and obeying Him is the right way, even though it feels impossible to do.
The problem is that your entire post still assumes you know what God will and won’t do, that they need to just hang on a leeeeettle bit longer and He’ll catch them and save them from divorce, as though divorce and Josh choosing to live according to his liking-guys feelings are the worst possible things that could happen.
What if you’re wrong? What if they’ve done exactly as you have said as long as they possibly could and then they broke and God wasn’t there to “fix” everything the way the Church says it should be fixed? What then? They have to forge a new path for themselves and pray that God will sustain them in this new path.
Frankly, the worst possible things that can happen in this life is that we become frozen, unable to move forward out of fear of falling or sinning or screwing up. Then, we have sacrificed our agency and we learn very little, having little experience. I know many members of the Church who are like this – so absolutely terrified of messing up because then they won’t qualify for God’s love.
Me, I’ve made some massive screwups, and interestingly enough, I found God more in the space following those screwups than when I was living the perfect Mormon life. Not because God delights in sin, but because before I fell hard, I kept Him at bay to a degree (I didn’t THINK I was doing so, but experience showed me how blind I was at the time), I was not aware of how much I needed Him in every part of my life.
So I made some decisions that landed me in hot water and I have learned more from that experience, gained more compassion for those who struggle and suffer, understood more about how God moves in all of our lives, blessing sinners and non-sinners alike, and found more of His love and joy that I ever experienced before than I ever did by staying froze, terrified of making a mistake.
Best bad decision ever, frankly. I wouldn’t change hardly a thing. In the long game, I gained far FAR more than I lost, and I will be able to help so many more people than I could have in my previous blind state.
I cannot look back at my decision and not see the Lord’s hand in allowing me to fall. He does not condone sin, yet there was no other path for me to find the most joy and connection to Him, so why not allow it? Why not ignore any pleas to save me from myself and let me fall because the strength and wisdom gained far outstripped the cost?
This is why I disagree with you and others pleading with Josh and Lolly to choose differently. Let them choose. If they are wrong, let them crash and burn and LEARN. If they are right and the Lord is directly guiding them to a place of greater joy and ability to serve His children, that’s fantastic. There is no need to armchair quarterback a complex situation with your own life experience because everyone’s situation is different and you just don’t know exactly what God will do to save His children, what paths they need to walk.
So in the end, don’t assume they aren’t trusting God or not walking into the impossible. It would be more impossible for most LDS folks to grasp that going into a gay lifestyle might be exactly the impossible thing God is having him do for the long-term greater good. I cannot say because I am not Josh, but I know the Lord and I *know* how much He loves His children.
What will the Lord do to save His children? Anything that works.
It might also be added that Josh and Lolly’s children are also in the Lord’s hands. Will the be deeply, fundamentally impacted by what their parents do? Yes, and that is how it was designed to be. They are all in the Lord’s hands and He will lead them all through.
EXACTLY! We are unable to be perfect parents. Inf act, that is part of the plan – we as parents screw our kids up so that they will have a reason to turn to the Savior instead of us. We try hard to minimize the amount of screwing up we do to them, but it’s hard-coded into God’s plan for us here, and it will happen despite our best efforts.
Remember that God isn’t up in Heaven looking down at the situation with his hands on his cheeks in shock, saying, “Oh my goodness, I didn’t see this coming! What am I going to do now?”
He knew *before* Josh and Lolly had kids what was going to happen. That’s why they got their kids instead of mine because He prepped those kids for this life with those parents, and [here it comes] *it’s totally OK*. Those girls will learn and grow and have experiences like everyone else, and good for them because that’s the plan. 🙂
Here’s the thing: we can learn by our own sins and mistakes, and we can also learn from those others have made before us, and greatest of all, we can learn by faith in God’s doctrines. There is no need for us to personally experience sin, guilt, estrangement from God, and other attendant consequences to learn. He knows we will do these things, and He wants us to learn from those times that we do. But He doesn’t plan for us to, desire us to, or otherwise seek for us to do this. In another sense, he does plan for us to, which is why he provided a Savior, but that was his plan, not the actual transgression that necessitated it. I think that needs to be clearly stated.
Josh and Lolly do not need to divorce and both get remarried to the respective genders and orientations to learn the lessons God intends. That runs counter to His plan for all His children as revealed by His prophets. He can teach them better in righteousness and covenant keeping. You can say all day that he might have a different plan for them than the rest of humanity in this regard. That is not true. It is dangerous. People don’t usually come back from this. Please do not perpetuate this falsehood.
If we could learn without needing the experience, then why come to this earth? We don’t need to experience cocaine to know for ourselves it is bad, but we are talking about marriage and life here. We are in a Telestial world with terrible struggles, sorrows, and weaknesses. God takes ALL of that into account.
Consider this: should Mother Theresa have joined the LDS church and walk away from her mission? I personally believe that the LDS church is not set up for someone like her to do what she was doing, and had missionaries knocked on her door, I suspect the Spirit would have told her to not join, not because it wasn’t true, but because He needed her elsewhere.
But doesn’t that run counter to what the prophets teach? In a way, yes, but remember this life isn’t the end of our experiences – we have the Spirit World to work out all of these things. I think that she joined the moment she hit the next life, but this life wasn’t the time for her to be a member.
Consider this possibility – what if God had a set of children that were unreachable by normal means. They as a group would not accept missionaries because they had been persecuted so much by religion, and they pulled away from those types of things. They would only be open to someone who shared similar experiences. Would God abandon them and say, “Well, you guys are not living righteously enough for me to help, so never mind.” Or might He possibly send some of his noblest spirits to join that group as a way to bring them back to the fold over time? It may mean that individuals are behaving in a way outside the normal commandments, but what if a few individuals acting in that way were able to rescue a huge number of His children that otherwise would have been lost?
If I was God, I’d totally take the latter course.
A real situation – a friend of mine had a horrifically abusive husband that also knew how to work the legal system, so she was turned out of her house. Her children were being preyed upon by potential sex traffickers, so she left the state very quickly with no money and nowhere to go. Over a short time, she met a guy who really cared for her, and she moved in with him. They eventually slept together before they were married, but got married after some time, and they have a wonderful, thriving relationship that allowed her to save her children from the traffickers. (This actually happened to a friend, I am not exaggerating any details.)
So should she have refused to move in with him because that would have invited potential chastity problems? Or moved back out when it became and issue, thus allowing her children to be taken from her to who-knows-where by sex traffickers? Is it possible that the Lord knew she was weak, battered by life and terrible trials, and thus would not be able to withstand the love of a man who actually cared for her with different standards than her, and still lead her there because it was a better result in the end than if she had “done the right thing”?
No, the Lord works with us right where we are, in whatever circumstance we are. Some people have the luxury of not needing to grapple with these situations, making their virtue and righteousness more of a choice, and some just don’t. Would you steal to eat if you would die otherwise?
It’s not as simple and straightforward to keep the commandments as we like to think they are, and He will often sacrifice a lower commandment to keep a higher one. Despite what Mormons tend to think, the law of chastity is NOT the highest law and the Lord has shown great mercy to those in difficult circumstances like that of my friend.
Ethan,
Are you saying the Lord never gives His children contrary commandments? What about Adam and Eve in the garden? By obeying one commandment, they were disobeying another. You’re absolutely right that we are living in a fallen, telestial state, subject to all the conditions of the flesh. We can’t obey our way to the Celestial Kingdom; it is only through the redemption provided by the Atonement that we can be reconciled with our Heavenly Father and return to His presence. As long as Josh continues to look to and love God and his neighbor, he will be obeying the greatest commandment we have been given. When he fails, as he inevitably will, being human, the Atonement provides a way he can repent and try again. Thus, he will gain more knowledge through experience, until the time he is fully reconciled with the Father. That’s how it works for all of us.
Also, you and many of the people commenting here are equating what Josh calls “romantic attachment” exclusively with sex when the desire to couple goes so much deeper than that. It’s not just about sex. There’s a HUGE discussion that needs to happen about attraction and coupling that can’t go anywhere as long as our culture, both within and without the Church, is still harboring homophobia. (Phobia is “fear”, by the way and not “hate”, though fear often leads to hate which is why these days we use the term homophobia to refer to hate and persecution.) Once we’re no longer scared of being gay, acting gay, etc., then we might actually come to understand more about what it is, where it comes from, and what it means for us as children of God.
I wish you the best on your mortal journey, Ethan. May the love of God surround you and fill you with light.
I see your point, and that of Ian as well. We can and do learn best through our sins, mistakes, errors, etc. And I have always had questions about situations that seemed like God was contradicting his own commandments for the best outcome. Even though there are apparent and extremely rare scriptural examples of this, I still do not believe He would have Josh violate laws of chastity or necessarily break marital covenants in order for him to make progress. If someone told me God told them explicitly to do something otherwise considered wicked for a good purpose, I have to admit, I would always be very skeptical and warn them against it. If they were certain it was God telling them to do it, I guess I’d be interested, and afraid, to see the aftermath. The prophets have been very clear that wickedness never was happiness and all my life experience has taught me that is true.
No, God does not work identically in all of our lives. I understand that. Perhaps I am making assumptions or drawing unwarranted conclusions. I don’t mean to do this. All I mean to do is speak of principles and how they universally apply. If the church is true, and I believe it is, and it is led by a prophet who speaks for God, and I believe it is, then I will always admonish people to follow that prophet and obey his counsels. I do this imperfectly, but that is what I believe in. I don’t think the Lord has a plan for anybody, in general, no matter what their temptations, challenges, or proclivities, to follow after these and indulge in them just to personally learn a lesson. Will we if we do? I know we can. I will and do sin. I sometimes learn from this, even after many, many occasions. I rely upon the Atonement of Jesus Christ to be forgiven for this. I also rely upon the atonement to stay strong in the face of temptation so that I can escape. Christ has done both for me and thanks be to God for it!
Romantic attachment might mean more than just sex, but I don’t really see it happening without ending there. It is what our bodies are designed to do, even if our bodies are wired somehow to do that with the same sex. It doesn’t seem to be different with Josh from what he has written. I am not afraid to discuss these issues at all. I don’t think most people are if there wasn’t the almost certain outcome of it turning into a hatefest, one way or the other. Very strong feelings there; very difficult to avoid that. I understand the desire to feel the sparks between two people. They should feel that longing. Yet, that desire should be in all cases subjugated to chastity as God defines it. I don’t see any wiggle room there, pardon the expression.
God can work with Josh and Lolly in whatever way He deems fit. Nobody can convince me, though, that He does it by condoning what Josh and Lolly are saying here. I genuinely care about them which is why I posted what I did. For no other reason. Just sharing my convictions and concerns which they have allowed by allowing comments. I doubt they’ll even read mine. If they do, I imagine their reaction would be to reject them because I don’t have all the facts. This is all OK with me.
I guess what gets under my skin is when people who have testimonies of the truthfulness of the gospel either encourage them to “live their truth” (there is only one truth, and we live it or we don’t) or attack others of us for being judgmental and overbearing when sharing our viewpoint. I’m not saying either you or Ian have done this to me. You have both been so civil and polite. If we feel something is not right with people we care about who appear to be open to input (please shut off the comments if you aren’t), we should be able to share it. And I welcome your rebuttals. I do not think I am being a jerk by standing firmly by my convictions, just as I do not think that of others for stating their views (although they can be jerks about it doing it at times–thanks to those of you, again, who have been civil). So that was a tangent, but I had to say it.
I wish both of you the very best as well. God bless everyone, and especially people like me who need it so very much.
I meant to say “We can and do learn much” at the beginning… not “best”
I totally get the struggle with “live their truth” as though the truth were relative when it is not. However, our ability to live truth varies wildly from person to person, from situation to situation, and from principle to principle. I may be really patient with person X in situation Y, but when I hit Person Z in any situation, or person A in situation B, I fall apart.
Or perhaps I was born as a crack baby, already deeply addicted due to the choices of others. I will struggle with something that stands outside the “standard”, but I will do my best even if I fail, and maybe fail often. The Lord is merciful and kind to us mortals and does not beat us with an objective standard.
So while the truth is not relative, how it applies to me in my situation just might be, which is why we needed a deeply personal Savior who knows us, not just the Law. There will be countless exceptions made because of individual circumstances, but we are not in a position to judge those ourselves, especially not for others, and often not even for ourselves (I fell into THAT trap myself for a long time in my last marriage – I stayed because I believed the false principle of “Covenants at all costs” when that cost was my soul). It’s God’s job to judge us, and sometimes He will show mercy in the moment and let us know that with all our failings, we are still acceptable to Him and all He expects is for us to do our best, even if we fail terribly.
So maybe Josh and Lolly are failing terribly, but I do not see wickedness (ie, rebellion) in their words. It’s not the action that determines wickedness, it’s the intent behind it. I can pray wickedly (Pharisees) or steal righteously (Nephi). I mentioned in another comment that I am not defending their decision, I am defending their right to make that decision without armchair quarterbacks telling them what they think they should do with their lives in this complex situation.
And at the end of the day, who are we to limit God? I stopped saying a while back, “God would never x” because I kept being wrong. He’ll do whatever the heck He needs to while playing the long game for the souls and joy of His children. That doesn’t make truth relative, but it does make for a very personal God who takes us where and how we are right now, no matter how weak or what our struggles are. While the crack baby will experience consequences for their addiction, they will not receive condemnation for it until they have made it a matter of outright rebellion, knowing what they are doing and having the strength and ability to do otherwise.
Oh, Ethan – I meant to say I appreciate respectful dialogue as well, so thanks for being that. 🙂
https://t.co/0UB77rpJ1k?amp=1
As part of the LDS faith, I have seen many members that are too quick to judge, without knowing background and without thinking of others’ feelings, frequently condemning other members and not allowing them time, space and love to repent. That saddens me. I am shocked at some of the comments that people made to the Weeds within church settings.
But I am also shocked about some of Josh’s statements that don’t coincide with fundamental beliefs of the religion he chooses to be part of. And I’m not talking directly about orientation here, I’m talking about the beliefs of how God speaks to his children, God’s goals for us, and the principle of a Living Prophet.
For LDS people, we believe that God loves us and would like for all of us to return to live with him in eternal families and continue to progress naturally through those families. We believe that in that process we will have trials and as we work through those we are to try to draw closer to him and seek for his wisdom through personal revelation and by following the teachings of the Prophet and Apostles. We also believe that through the keys given to the Prophet and Apostles, these men are given revelation to bring us closer to God, but never away from him.
So when Josh says that he received personal revelation, that is widely accepted within the LDS community as a strong possibility. But, the moment Josh says that God wants him to seek after something that would force him to break sacred covenants he has made, that is in-congruent with anything I have ever known of the nature of God or his desires for his children. And Josh’s assumption that the Prophet and Apostles would ever make a statement that would encourage thousands of people to seek after things forcing them to break promises with God and drawing farther away from him is completely outside the realm of possibility. Claiming that his own personal revelation is more pertinent to mankind than that of the Prophet is actually something he can be excommunicated for, not because of his desire for a positive romantic relationship, but because he is encouraging people to ignore the words of the prophet. And as his father was in church leadership, this is something Josh would likely have already known.
It seems much more likely that Josh is seeking for that excommunication as a way to publicly separate from his religion, but also to assuage his guilt at deciding to toss aside the promises that he made with God.
Josh needs to come to terms that you cannot be Mormon and be openly gay.
The Book of Mormon is very clear on homosexuality and if he had a revelation, it was probably from Satan.
Summer you mean like it was clear about polygamy until it wasn’t or when it was clear about black people until it wasn’t?
There is not one word about homosexuality in the Book of Mormon. Not one.
True. It’s the 12 straight white old men who get grossed out by gay male sex that are the problem let’s be honest.
How on earth would you know his motivations?
Interesting peek into their lives although not a model to live our lives by, nor by which to understand the lives of others. It’s just a share. Just like Josh said about churches, our lives are “dynamic, learning and growing, and capable of both profound goodness and profound error.” Guaranteed that in five more years there could be another post with more conclusions, some of “profound goodness” and some of “profound error”.
I read lots of comments that take doctrines of the Mormon faith or religion generally and use this family’s current conclusions to justify a current position. When Josh was a unicorn, his blog was used to justify certain viewpoints. Now that he’s a bat, it is being used to justify alternative viewpoints. That’s unfair. Today they apologize for old viewpoints and unwanted consequences.
In the next “coming out” post they’ll apologize for some of these viewpoints and the unwanted consequences that will inevitably incur. That is unfair, as well. Just like we ought not judge others for their choices, we ought not justify as well. We are each walking our own path and at any moment we find ourselves in congruence with some while in conflict with others, and as we live and face more challenges, that crowd will/can/does change. When personal life lessons are shared, we each learn something a little different. That little something is for ourselves. What is shared is not a righteous tool to deny or defend, judge or justify, belittle or bless, anyone or any organization as if that personal experience is some great revelation for a larger community.
The only truth to this post and all the ensuing comments is that Josh & Lolly are a work in progress, just like the rest of us.
I will share what I have personally learned or reaffirmed from this post:
-It is normal to struggle with identity. Sexuality is not the crux to our identity. The modern era is decorated with this theme of sexual identity and romantic fulfillment.
-I wonder if the appreciation for comfortable, dependable and stable companionship is undervalued.
-I don’t want to teach that romance is the keystone to a happy marriage; I think the ability to work side by side in harmony is.
-There are also normal stages in marriage: 10 years seems like there are rough patches to get over, 15 years has some, too…I’m hitting 20 years this spring. There have been times when I feel like I live with a roommate, but so far the worse part is realizing that I’m aging.
-I don’t like “movements”. They are a gathering of flawed people who pretend to “know” and then draw others in, most prematurely, through tactics of coercion, shame, sophistry, etc. When the movement ends or morphs, what’s left of the followers? Many are lost, friendless, confused, and in identity crisis. Life lessons take a lifetime and movements do not last that long. Critics tend to compare churches to movements, but that’s mean-spirited. The true doctrine of Jesus Christ comes with an invitation and encouragement, not coercion, to gain a personal witness of principles of truth.
-We are in a constant state of transition and learning, and I think these states are often misunderstood and dramatically labeled when really it’s just growing up; a little hope (defined as patient perseverance, optimism, enthusiasm, and confidence) goes a long way in that journey. For me, that is where the Savior comes in, He provides that hope. As long as I keep my promises, His are sure, and, in the end, what I really want is what He promises.
-Faith is not cultural expression.
There is my colorful thread to add to this tapestry of thought. 🙂
“-It is normal to struggle with identity. Sexuality is not the crux to our identity. The modern era is decorated with this theme of sexual identity and romantic fulfillment.”
The modern era is that, but previous eras were decorated with a theme of women and girls having to spread their legs for men they didn’t even like and having their dried-up-by-feeling-turned-off vaginal walls (not just hymens and not just the first time) chafed and sometimes torn by those men’s penises in the name of family identity and forced-arranged-marriage fulfillment.
*In comparison* the modern era is far more modest because it actually has more room for a girl keeping her legs closed whenever she wants to.
This post makes me so sad. Your first coming out article took such a specific stance and now you feel as though you are eating your words. You don’t know what the future holds, so why continue to make such strong specific statements as, “it cannot work.” Clearly some people make it work. I think if you say, “I cannot make it work,” that would be a little more fair. I mean none of us really have the right to judge your situation so why do you have to judge others.
It doesn’t work. Josh’s children got very lucky because Josh has been going the extra mile to act with openness toward his family and to try to make sure that his family continues to be safe. Not all gay men are as well able to hold themselves together in his situation, though. One of my ex-boyfriends struggled with depression, and his ex-wife consequentially suffered so tremendously that both of them were on medications that really did not do very much to alleviate what they were going through.
It is irresponsible and cruel to suggest to a gay man that he should try to make a straight marriage work. It doesn’t work, and their entire families ultimately suffer the consequences, not just them.
And ultimately, not all of them are at fault because many of them have been kept in a sheltered conservative bubble-universe where they have been assured, every day, that somehow, marriage with a woman will erase all of their unwanted desires and turn them into happy and well-adjusted straight men. They are led to believe this, and they enter their marriages with nothing but good intentions and sincerity in their heart.
You no longer have the excuse of innocence because I and others have pleaded with you to understand the consequences. We have pleaded with you to comprehend that a person’s sexuality cannot change, ever, no matter how much bargaining one engages in. It doesn’t work.
If you keep pushing people to attempt to do something that you know has destructive and cancerous consequences, then I can only conclude that you are an evil person. When you open your mouth and knowingly produce words that result in people getting hurt, then that makes you a monster.
The saving grace is that you can quit hurting others anytime you want to. You could quit hurting other people ten years from now, and that would be good. You could quit right now, and that would be better.
Stop advising innocent and unsuspecting people to do things that get themselves and other people hurt.
I’m going to say the same thing to you as I’ve been saying to the LDS and Christian crowd on the opposite end of your spectrum (and I would say to Josh as well) – you don’t know for everyone else what is best for them. You can speak with authority what was best for you and with those whom you have talked to and they have told you the truth (because sometimes people tell lies for whatever reason), but you cannot speak for all people who are in mixed orientation marriages that 100% of them have been brainwashed or are being damaged, etc. If they come to that point, that’s their business, but no one has the right to say that a mixed orientation marriage should never happen or can never work or will always damage the participants. You can speak for yourself, but it’s not fair to impose your reality and your experiences on others.
Same thing goes for anyone claiming that “God would never condone same-sex relationships, any revelation along those lines must be the devil!” We don’t get to be armchair quarterbacks for other people’s lives or assume we know everything about what God would or wouldn’t do. Some people will have your experience, others will not, and that’s just fine. Let them. If they are wrong, they will learn, if they are right, you will learn (if you let yourself learn).
You don’t like it when the other side tells you that you are wrong because they’ve decided unilaterally that you cannot be right, don’t do the same thing back. You’re no more justified in it than they are, and it sucks either way, not to mention it shows an appalling lack of compassion for others on both sides when anyone does it.
Just sayin’.
[\rant] 😉
Well put Ian, thanks ☺
The Word of God, both written and in fleshly form, are the standard by which we measure all else.
Ginny, yes and no. The Telestial world we live in doesn’t always allow things to be so clean cut. I gave an example in an earlier comment about a friend that I’ll copy/paste here for discussion:
A real situation – a friend of mine had a horrifically abusive husband that also knew how to work the legal system, so she was turned out of her house. Her children were being preyed upon by potential sex traffickers, so she left the state very quickly with no money and nowhere to go. Over a short time, she met a guy who really cared for her, and she moved in with him. They eventually slept together before they were married, but got married after some time, and they have a wonderful, thriving relationship that allowed her to save her children from the traffickers. (This actually happened to a friend, I am not exaggerating any details.)
So should she have refused to move in with him because that would have invited potential chastity problems? Or moved back out when it became and issue, thus allowing her children to be taken from her to who-knows-where by sex traffickers? Is it possible that the Lord knew she was weak, battered by life and terrible trials, and thus would not be able to withstand the love of a man who actually cared for her with different standards than her, and still lead her there because it was a better result in the end than if she had “done the right thing”?
No, the Lord works with us right where we are, in whatever circumstance we are. Some people have the luxury of not needing to grapple with these situations, making their virtue and righteousness more of a choice, and some just don’t. Would you steal to eat if you would die otherwise?
The point being is that as we talked, she told me how the Lord led her to this guy, who has been a prince in her life, especially after all the abuse she suffered at the hands of her previous husband. And I BELIEVE HER. I believe the Lord did not hold to the LAW so tightly that He would prefer that His daughter go homeless and her children kidnapped by sex traffickers just to avoid putting my friend in a position where she, being weak and battered and mortal, would fall to breaking the law of chastity with a guy who was exactly what she and her kids needed in the long run.
So, thus yes and no. The LAW is written in the scriptures and by the prophets, but the Lord works with us in the trenches according to our individual circumstances. That’s the WHOLE POINT of a Savior. He comes to us wherever we are, and helps us out of those circumstances using whatever methods are necessary. For my friend, this led her into a relationship of sexual conduct outside of marriage, and that was fine because it was preferably (vastly so in this situation) to the alternative.
The Lord is not on a platform looking down, expecting us to fit the Law in all ways before He helps us, or expect our Telestial circumstances to fit the Law before He helps us. Mercy, grace, Atonement. These things are brought by the Savior and allow the Law to bend and even be broken in situations where a greater law needs to be served without tossing His children under the bus due to circumstances beyond their individual control.
So it’s not as simple as scriptures and a living prophet guiding us. The Savior walks with us in our individual circumstances and sometimes we are on paths we never expected Him to take us on, but will end up for the betterment of all, even if those paths run counter to the scriptures and the prophets.
Abraham was instructed to lie, Nephi was instructed to murder, I was told I *should* have ignored President Hinckley’s instruction to the Church to read the Book of Mormon because I was already there, and I have been instructed in the past to go deep into debt for something that was not school, house, or car despite THAT being against prophetic counsel (and it was exactly what I needed in the long run). In each of these circumstances, the Lord showed that He will guide His individual children as their individual circumstances require, not forcing them to bend to the Law in All Circumstances No Matter What.
He IS the Law. The Spirit told Nephi to kill a guy in cold blood – granted, not a common occurrence, but it goes to show that we just don’t know what God will or won’t do, so stop assuming you know, because you don’t. None of us can know for Josh and Lolly what they should do except them. It’s not so simple that an outsider can armchair quarterback for them.
“He IS the law.” Brilliant.
By the way, Ginny, I talked to you as though you were LDS and I just realized you are not. What made me think it was your comment about the Word of God in fleshly form, which for an LDS person refers to the living prophet. Sorry about the assumption, if you need me to restate anything for a non-LDS person in those terms, let me know and I will be happy to oblige. 😉
There are no sides. There are only people so desperate to be able to stay in the Mormon Church that they, as gay men, marry straight women. The women consciously believe they get it but unconsciously they are convinced that their husband will straighten up. Meanwhile the husband tries to convince himself that he is happy but he can’t control his unconscious mind. So much energy is spent on the part of the man and the woman that all us well that there is little energy for anything else
So no not two sides.
You are making assumptions about other people for them. While what you say has been true for some, it may not be true for others. It is not ours to say, only them. I do not believe anyone should be pushed into a relationship under false pretenses like what you describe, but there are those that are still successful because it is what they choose, and you don’t get to decide or prophecy about their end. That’s their sphere, not yours or mine.
I have seen gay men attempting straight marriages result in unnecessary pain, and the men always end up believing that they are somehow at fault, yet the people around them had knowingly lied to them and knowingly pushed them to believe that, somehow, they could make it work.
Do not tell gay men that somehow they are going to be different. You know that a gay man in that situation will believe anything and hang onto any hope that somehow he can erase the fact that he is gay. You know that, even if you told him only one chance in a thousand, he would ruin his life with the idea that he was somehow going to win that lottery.
It’s the equivalent of telling them to sell their houses for eternal lottery tickets, and it would be bad enough if only they had to suffer the consequences. Ultimately, their families end up getting hurt, too.
Ian, of course you have to say that/think that lest you have to realize that you have been lied to.
I wept during and after reading this post. I am a straight, LDS woman. I did not weep because Josh and Lolly have made this decision. I wept because I cannot imagine the pain and hardships that all gay people have to go through. I have often thought how hard it would be to never have the hope of finding someone that you love and can love. I cannot understand what that is like. And although I believe that this life is just a small part of our eternal experience that doesn’t make the pain and suffering that we go through here any less real. I don’t have any answers and I don’t have any words of comfort. I just want Josh and Lolly, and anyone else with same-sex attraction to know that there are straight people who love you, pray for you, and want all the best for you.
Very thoughtful Caitlin 😊
Amen to that Caitlin
Hi Josh,
I was just wondering. I am still a member of the church and plan to stay on the path I am on, even though I do experiance a strong attraction to the same sex. Same sex attraction, gay, whatever you want to call it.
By this post, are you saying the path I am on is ultimately impossible because it was that way for you? I really an sincere here, and just would like to know your thoughts. Thanks.
Andy, the reason that I am answering is that my first boyfriend gave me some insight into how this worked, and that’s why I have such a strong interest in this topic.
My first boyfriend was actually neither an atheist nor a Christian, but he was from a Reform Jewish family. He grew up in Brooklyn, as far as I knew going to an integrated school in the area. His family didn’t start out very rich, being the children of Polish refugees of World War II, so his father worked in the humble occupation of a butcher, occasionally having to fight off Mafia thugs to keep the family safe.
Well, his father was not just his hero in the usual sense that healthy kids worship their dads, but his father was like a real life action hero. The guy was impossibly cool. My first boyfriend was willing to suffer through anything in order to avoid letting his dad down, literally anything. No matter how much he was hurting on the inside, his life literally depended on keeping his dad proud of him and thinking he’d really “made it.”
After his dad died, it was only then that it became clear that he had been putting on a puppet-show for his dad. None of it was real. Once the audience wasn’t really there anymore, the puppets went from being a magical cartoon fantasy he’d created to amuse his father to being some soulless pieces of wood and some rags. The illusion started to break down.
You might think he would keep the show going for his two children, but his kids were young. Young people can adjust well to new ideas, so when he came out to his wife and eventually his son and daughter as being a gay guy, there was barely a ripple from that by itself. Eventually, his son really cared more about training Pokemon than whether or not his dad was gay, not being the first son whose parents were annoyingly lame. His daughter still wanted to play baker in the kitchen. For them, things that transpired at school had more significance than their parents being non-traditional.
His wife still desperately needed a real husband.
Ultimately, the reason for the divorce was for his wife. He was wasting that woman’s time, and it wasn’t fair to her. The problem wasn’t that he didn’t love her. It was the opposite. He loved her more than anything, and this person he loved more than anything, who was one of the most precious and good people he had ever known, was suffering because there was something missing from her life that he did not have the ability to satisfy. A puppet-show wasn’t going to cut it for her.
If you don’t really care two cents about your wife, you can swing it. If all you want out of her is a social facade, go ahead, use her. Use her as your beard. Use her as if she were a soulless tool. If you really don’t care that you’ve left a gaping hole in this woman’s life, then yeah, you can keep it up indefinitely. While you’re doing things just for yourself, though, go ahead and start making up excuses for “business trips.” Cheat, cheat, and cheat some more. Use that woman up as if she had no more of a soul than a mop and bucket, and when she finally collapses into senile dementia, throw her into a home.
Whatever you do, though, don’t let yourself love her. If you start loving her, then you will start realizing what a jerk you’ve been to her, and that is not something you can go on dealing with forever, no matter how much you think you can. The more desperately you love her, the more desperately you are going to want everything for her.
Hi William,
Thank you for sharing your experience. I am however, in my 20’s, and am not in a relationship with a man or a woman right now. I personally feel that staying a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is right for me. I do hope someday that I can, whether it be in this life or the next one, have a wife and kids. The path I was referring to was in part about being in a mixed orientation marriage, but also about how a gay person can be an active member of the LDS Church.
You can be active in your church by trying to help other gay LDS feel less alone. If you being a member of a church isn’t something you intend to use as a chance to help people, then why are you bothering with it at all? Gay LDS are the easiest lives you will ever save. Just be out, every day, and make sure that none of them ever have to believe that they are the only ones. Just by doing that, you’ll give a younger person than yourself the strength to stay in this world. It takes a few words, here and there, to remind them that you are there.
Thank you for your insights. I am sure you understand that I am pondering on when would be the best time to come out. I want to do it when it feels right to me, which is not currently at this moment. I do help others still, by supporting others in whatever they feel is right. When I feel it is right, I do share personally and privately with others my feelings and attractions- and that has helped them lower their own barriers and open their hearts. I don’t believe would have happened or had the same effect if I was completely out. When people make harsh comments, such as “gays shouldn’t be allowed to go to the same bathroom as their own sex”, I share when prompted. Most apologize, realizing that their thinking of gays as just the stereotype or category that most put gays in. Of dirty, filth, or perhaps sin just for having the attractions we experience. But when I share with them, their countenance softens. They know me for who I truly am, before defining me by a label of gay. Not by a label that defines who a person is or will be like. There are a lot of voices in the world telling us what we should and shouldn’t do- I am doing what I feel is right. And I support Josh and you for doing what you both feel is right. As I am doing the same.
What you report is pretty much why coming out is so powerful. People can rage against some hypothetical force that is faceless. When they have to face the person that is actually affected in practice, they tend to think in a different way. Hardly anybody wants to injure someone they know.
William, it seems to me that it is important to give everyone space to live their lives in the way they feel is best for them. We can seldom predict how our own lives will go, much less anyone else’s. I support Andy in doing those things he feels are right for him.
Laurie Campbell,
One may try doing something that has been done many times over if one really wants to, but once it is pretty well established what the outcome is likely to be, then we must eventually assume that one is pursuing that outcome on purpose.
Ever since reading this a few days ago I have completely crushed. It is not my job to judge others and my comments do not intend to do this. I would just like to share my perhaps unique perspective. I am the child of a LDS mixed-orientation marriage. My parents have stayed together for nearly 5 decades at this point. Of course it has been beyond hard for them. But knowing how difficult it has been for them and that they choose to stay together has given me great strength and inspiration as I have faced the challenges in my own marriage (my husband is both mentally ill and an abuse survivor). I have felt that complete hopelessness of never having that special romantic attachment in this life, because my husband is rarely capable of it because of his illness. Although the cause is not the same, I think the feelings are the same–grief, loss, hopelessness, powerlessness, loneliness. I am grateful that my parents showed me how to persevere in their covenants although they were both stilted in their own happiness. It has taught me how to hold on to God as the source of my strength rather than my spouse. Sure I look at other couples that seems to really love each other in every way and I am envious or sad. But I also see many good things in my life, my children chief among them, my career as well, and I see the Lord’s hand working in my life, and that gives me peace.
My parents are not the only such couple I know personally who have chosen to stay together in a mixed-orientation marriage. I am not saying this is for everyone of course, but I know that it can be a viable choice for some, and I applaud those people. I am sad about this post because 1. I was so happy to read the first coming-out one because here was someone else who had made this choice, and I felt inspired by that. I think you were very clear in it that post that this was not the right choice for everyone, and I don’t think you owe anyone an apology for what evil others may have used it for. 2. I worry that now this one will be used to argue it is never possible and shouldn’t be a valid choice to have a marriage like my parents’. However, that wouldn’t be your fault either. You are both entitled to your own choices and feelings. It just makes me sad, because those in mixed-orientation marriage have so little support. They get attacked from both sides. People in the conservative community are disgusted by it, people in the gay community are disgusted by it. My parents lost many supposedly good friends when they were very viciously outed a couple of years ago.
You are both very brave to let the world have a peek into your marriage and personal lives. You deserve privacy and respect as you make these changes in your family. I hope you the best and that you all get the love you need.
Mrs. IDM’s child?
momof4, thank you for this post.
Thanks Momof4 — I suspect we all can identify in some manner — and that none of is not “stilted” in our own happiness and relationships. No one is always on the mountaintop. Sometimes maybe that simple concept of the “greener grass” probably contributes to each of us viewing others as having something we do not and cannot hope for. Thanks for sharing your unique perspective as the mother of four and the child of a long-lasting mixed-orientation marriage. Life is difficult — and beautiful. God bless.
Dear Josh and Lolly,
You don’t know me, but I have been following your blog off and on since you posted your original club Unicorn Post. I wanted you to know that for me, that post was one of the things that helped really open my eyes to the experience of being LGBT and Mormon, and to being LGBT+ in general. I shared that post with many people I loved not necessarily to hold your marriage up as a model for how a non-straight individual could live the gospel, but to show the increasing number of LGBT+ people in my life who I know and love and hold dear that they are not the only one. As you are well aware, being LGBT+ and LDS can be so isolating, and it was so incredibly beautiful to me to have a story of an openly gay Mormon man to point to and say, “Hey, you aren’t alone. There are other people in your situation.” As more and more of my family members and close friends have come out to me privately, I have used things I have learned from your story to empathize more fully with them. So I want to thank you for sharing both this and your original viral post and to reassure you that the original post did a lot to increase the visibility of the LGBT+ community in the LDS church, which is still a desperate need. Thank you to you both for your vulnerability, honesty and example of trying to live by the Spirit and do the right thing in your family’s lives. I hope both of your voices will continue to remain strong, as your examples are so needed. Best wishes as you continue to embrace yourselves for who God made you to be! I appreciate having more now I can share with others to help with my attempts increasing understanding and empathy.
Josh and Lolly,
I wish I had written to thank you when I read your 2012 post. I thought Josh’s comments on intimacy were profound and they have been helpful to my wife and me and to our kids as they have married. At the time you said, “…basically when sex is done right, at its deepest level it is about intimacy. It is about one human being connecting with another human being they love. It is a beautiful physical manifestation of two people being connected in a truly vulnerable, intimate manner because they love each other profoundly. It is bodies connecting and souls connecting. It is beautiful and rich and fulfilling and spiritual and amazing. Many people never get to this point in their sex lives because it requires incredible communication, trust, vulnerability, and connection.”
As for this post, I am sad to read you are ending your marriage. From my perspective, I worry you are discarding something sacred and wonderful in the pursuit of a fantasy. Or to use your symbol, I fear you are choosing to be unicorn hunters, searching for a western ideal of “romantic attachment” that doesn’t really exist. But, I certainly honor your right to choose and I admire your efforts to be honest and transparent.
I hope you find joy and happiness as you strive to follow our Savior Jesus Christ.
The quote you cited is so revealing as to how bewildering these blogposts are. They write as if they have everything figured out and then come to the exact opposite conclusions… after their views have been read and validated by thousands. What a mess.
Thank you Josh and Lolly!
Read this with interest, and while I appreciate the soul searching, I’m not sure I agree with the conclusion. I’m not LDS (anymore) so not using an LDS lens on this, but more applying it to my situation. I have had lovers in my life full of passion. I’ve known ‘romantic’ love as they are calling it. And it left me typically broken and depressed because they were always assholes in other ways. When you have ‘passion’ you also can have fighting and brutal hurting. I married a man who is so stable and loving that he gives me ground to soar. I knew when I married him, that I did NOT feel ‘passion’ towards him, I love him, but not romantically. I married him anyway. He, having never had another relationship, doesn’t know what passion is, and because we’ve discussed it, doesn’t even know where to begin… I’ve had to make a decision to let go of that idea that marriage involves passion if I want to be successful with him… and I do, so I did.
We share the same dreams, goals, ambitions, spirituality, even TV shows. He’s an amazingly stable provider, never fails to come on time, and shares 50% of all kid/house chores because I work too. We are best of friends most days, and he’s an amazing snuggler, but I’ll never have the passion I remember from more stormy relationships. Would I trade in everything I have for one last passionate make out? I don’t think so.
I worry the Weeds are making a huge mistake. Maybe they need to experience ‘passion’ to see it’s not all that, or the cons of what comes with it.
Well stated Lisa, even with the slip.
OMG Lisa stop judging for goodness sakes.
Isn’t that like the pot calling the kettle black?
only since 1978
I have married a wonderful man; we feel mutual love, passion and sexual attraction to each other and we are best friends too. We will be celebrating our 20th wedding anniversary this year. If I were to believe that my experience can be superimposed on everyone’s life, I would feel sorry for you and say that you have made a mistake by settling. Good thing I believe that everyone has their own path, just like Josh and Lolly. (IMHO, passion is ‘all that’.)
*come HOME on time… lol. freudian slip?
Hey sorry things were rough, wish you all the best, and your wife and kids too in this difficult station. Prayers out to ya!
Thank you for sharing your beautiful story. I related to so much of it. My ex-husband came out as gay about 4.5 years ago, and we have maintained a beautiful friendship and parenting partnership when it comes to our two children. We do not have an LDS background, but my ex-husband was raised in an extremely conservative evangelical Christian environment, and we can relate to so much of what you have shared. Even though we are no longer married, we are each other’s biggest champions and still have so much love for each other. Our divorce was a mutual decision, because we want what’s best for each other, and ultimately our family. I have so much respect for your decision, and just want to offer encouragement in what I know is a difficult time. Much love to you and your family.
I would love to talk with you if you have the time.
Hi Josh and Lolly!
I know there are 1000+ comments so you probably won’t read this, but I wanted to reach out and give you my love. I can’t remember how i found out about you, but I was always intrigued by your relationship. It was always my hope that you would become true to yourself and live your most authentic life. It saddens me that your marriage is ending, but I think that you both are such fantastic parents, that your girls will do great. I wish the both of you the best of luck, and that you’ll find partners to grow old with.
Josh, This post seems very tortured and conflicted, as if you are still sorting all the facets of the situation out in your heart and mind. It would be nice to get Lolly’s perspective here. I hope that whatever paths you choose for yourself from this point is at least as good as you made your 15 years of mixed-orientation marriage sound. I could never understand the weight that brought you to this tipping point but I support your every effort to do the right thing for yourself and family. Your unicorn post was beautiful and coherent compared to this one so I hope your inner turmoil wasn’t t triggered by the noise and pressures of all the external voices from every direction. Wedded bliss is a fairly elusive dream for any two individuals and most end in separation of some kind. May the source of true peace always guide your footsteps!
Anyone else starting to get a bit worried about Josh? This post is almost a month old. I am sincerely concerned that he is being ‘disciplined’ and maybe excommunicated? I’m also worried that all of the judgemental comments on here have had a strong negative effect.
I hope he blogs again soon.
Wow! What a Great Article Thanks Man! Great work! Thats an ideal content that i have ever seen on internet
I was just wondering. I am still a member of the church and plan to stay on the path I am on, even though I do experiance a strong attraction to the same sex. Same sex attraction, gay, whatever you want to call it.
By this post, are you saying the path I am on is ultimately impossible because it was that way for you? I really an sincere here, and just would like to know your thoughts. Thanks.
I’m not Josh, but I will respond.
It is absolutely NOT impossible. You can choose who you want to be. Anything can be overcome.
DG, will you please not say something like this! People cannot choose who they want to be. Sexual orientation is something you’re born with. Don’t tell people otherwise, that is harmful.
The “Unicorn post” came with all kinds of post-scripts in the days following, several follow up posts even though the initial post was quite lengthy (as was this “bat post”). This time, it is the post and the overwhelming public reaction and some interviews wherin they mostly just repeated what is written here…. mostly radio silence. They both said all they want to say for now, I guess? Josh, I hope you and Lolly and your girls are doing well. I do wish all of you the best during the transition. If nothing else, I hope for an update post right here on this very blog in a decade or so, on June 7th. Love to all of you.
He will not receive Church discipline unless he does something that merits a repentance process. He has said that has not happened yet.
Don’t do it! Stay together! It will be ok!!! Sexuality is not everything!
Re-read. What a disaster in every way. I can’t believe the grandstanding and the desperate need for attention and validation. This family has become a travesty, and it’s on display for all the world to see.
:'(
DG, I found your words to be very insensitive. This was a very brave post that probably helped a lot of people. Myself included. I thought is very authentic and well intended. Especially the part where they apologized to a community they now better understand.
I believe you two are most courageous! I loved you 5 years ago. I loved Josh made time for me when I was struggling and I love you guys now.
At some point you will realize that part of the conundrum here is the near-total conflation of religious belief with so-called “bad thinking” (ideas that are easily refuted logically or according to the rules of critical thinking and discourse). Pretty much every argument against homosexuality is defeatable with rational argument. The problem is, so is most of (but not all IMHO) religion.
You can be a good, kind, beautiful person without being LDS and without adhering to nearsighted sexual rules (which all more or less fall under the Appeal to Disgust or Appeal to Nature fallacies, anyway).
The need for emotional intimacy is powerful for both man and woman. The lack of it in marriage is difficult and sometimes damaging, as Lolly expresses. Most women I know need to feel loved, cherished, adored and appreciated. In my current marriage it is a powerful force that binds us together. The power of intimate touch, a loving look in the eye, a stroke of hair is superglue in our marriage. Our culture often views sex as the need – “if the sex is good then what’s the problem?” Yet healthy sex – physical intimacy – is built upon a foundation of emotional intimacy. Without emotional intimacy sex becomes mechanical. I’ve been there before and I know others who have too. I suppose for some people it works, but I imagine that more people have a need for that connection. You don’t have to be soulmates or even share all the same interests. Heck you can even belong to opposite political parties as Mary Matalin and James Carville have proven (political strategists for Repubs and Dems respectively). But to share a small spark is powerful, and I would argue necessary, no matter how small it is. I hope both Josh and Lolly find that spark in future spouses and that all 4 parents can unite in purpose to raise the girls and other potential stepchildren. I am a straight white male with a strong LDS testimony. I know God loves all of His children. I am not an expert in LGBT issues or being attracted to my gender and I am nobody’s judge. God bless to you all!
I came cross your blog today and have struggled with deciding whether or not to write a reply. Your message is so profound and its very obvious you have put tons of thought and heart-wrenching emotion into it. Your struggles are real. It is not my intent to demean any of that. My message is simple.
For 30 years, I have lived alone. No one has wanted me. I couldn’t get a man to look at me if I tried. I was blessed to have one child when I was 21 and married, but he left 2 years later and I’ve been alone since. Many nights I have cried myself to sleep wishing I had someone to love, hold onto, talk with. It doesn’t appear that its in my stars to have this. The temptations are real. Suicidal thoughts I’ve had are real. Wanting my entire existence to be snuffed out completely is real. I see people with handicaps who are denied physical and emotional love, wishing they could find someone who would be accepting of them enough to love. I have seen people who have addictions to alcohol, pedophilia, infidelity, pornography, drug abuse, food addictions. Is the answer that God intended us to be this way? That if our bodies are weak, we are to act on our temptations? My point: we were given trials to overcome and if we are successful, in this brief, extremely short life, we will be blessed immeasurably for eternity. What keeps me going: the adversary is the father of deception, and will do anything he can to get us to justify our behavior, blind us to what lies ahead.
I don’t have all the answers, nor do I think anyone does. Its my deepest hope that you will find your answers, and that if God does allow homosexual partners in the next life, then the path you are on is good. I don’t think any of us will know anything for sure until we pass. God bless you and I wish you well.
There is a strong focus in this article on “romantic attachment” and the perception that it is a fundamental need of all humans. Sadly, the existence of hope for such an attachment is not as universal among heterosexually oriented people as Josh suggests, and one might reasonably believe that a hope of *lasting* romantic attachment for divorced parents who live together must surely be low. One gets the sense that Lolly is sacrificing much so that Josh can be free to seek what he perceives as a fundamental need exceeding the needs of his family. I’d love to see a follow-up in another 15 years showing how much “happier” each member of the family members have become as a result of the decision to divorce.
Sadly, beautifully said. I feel for everyone involved. There are no right answers in divorce. Josh has been so strong in all of this.
Dear Josh and Lolly,
One thing that jumped out at me as I read both posts/announcements, was the strident tone. Even evangelical. Like the saying goes, he (or she) is “seldom wrong, and never in doubt!” In the current (second) post you allow absolutely no room for other possibilities. But I’m going to offer one anyway. Not as a statement of bedrock truth, but of some thoughts that have occurred to me.
First I think the analogy of blue eyes doesn’t work. At all. Blue eyes may be an aberration from the norm, but they are fully functional and operate exactly the same as eyes of any other color. (At least I have never heard that blue eyes are lesser for any reason). Homosexuality doesn’t. A more apt analogy could be individuals with Down Syndrome. What is your opinion of them? Are they “broken”? I view them as having certain limitations, but recognizing that doesn’t mean they are “broken.” But if someone refers to them as “broken” I don’t equate that with useless or bad. People with Down Syndrome are wonderful individuals with compensating strengths to make up for their mental or emotional developmental challenges. For one thing they possess the purest most loving spirits of any group I know. I view gay people in the same manner. What is wrong with stating the obvious, that they have sexual/emotional limitations (handicapped?). It is obvious to anyone who’s not handicapped by political correctness, but they have wonderful compensating strengths. Among other things, my experience is that they seem to be inordinately talented and skilled in the arts. They bring great beauty that would otherwise not exist. I have gay friends. I value them the same as anyone else.
Nothing wrong with being “handicapped.” I’ve heard great and inspiring speeches from people with no legs or with some other deficiency who say they don’t consider themselves handicapped. I take no issue with that and I would never argue with them. I am in awe that they are clearly so much more powerful than I would be in their situation. And I say, yah, they are not handicapped or even if they are, they have overcome the handicap. Hooray!
Second I think the romance (romantic love) requirement is overblown with the gay community. I can’t find the quote, but I have read statements by gay activists who heavily criticize “politically correct” gays for being afraid to affirm that gay lifestyle is “all about sex.”
Long before the current opening cultural attitudes toward gays, long before I personally knew any gay person, long before there was any suggestion of gay marriage, I would tell college kids, and especially older singles who were still obsessed with finding the “right” marriage partner, that there are numberless VALID reasons for getting married. Romance is one really good reason, but certainly not the only one. There are marriages of convenience, marriages for security, marriages because so-and-so is the ONLY available and eligible young man/woman in their home town, etc. Some cultures still have arranged marriages. Why oh why would you judge a gay man and hetero woman who decided to get married because (a) they want a standard issue family, (b) they do love each other, and (c) they are willing to commit their lives to raising that family and serving others? Why would you condemn or denigrate them and say they are in denial and in pain like your second post does? At least in the first post you said you weren’t trying to foist your arrangement on all gay people.
You apologized to gays that may have been traumatized by your first post. Is it possible your second post is traumatizing and wrongfully going to cause perfectly good and valid gay/hetero marriages to break up, leaving heartbroken spouses and children in their wake? Is it possible you are going to cause couples who thought their marriage covenants were inviolate to now think they are invalid, go ahead and break your promises??
Is it possible, Josh, that the reason you are so so strident about finding a romantic male relationship is because you have been brainwashed by Hollywood, into believing that romance is the greatest imperative and purpose in this life? Just a thought to consider.
I have a very good friend who after years of marriage and beautiful, wonderful children, met another married woman and the two of them decided that they were in fact SOULMATES. They each left their spouses and ran off together, convinced it was what they had to do because they were meant for each other in the eternities. Well, guess what? They were wrong. It took a couple of years for them to figure that out and they both went crawling back to their original spouses who, miraculously, took them back! I don’t know but I think it is very possible they both lacked romance in their marriages and were brainwashed by Hollywood into believing that romance was an absolute requirement. There are other valid reasons for getting, and staying, married. Remember, when you marry, whether civil or in the church, you covenant/promise/commit to stay together, for this life and/or forever.
Josh, is it also possible that the reason you lost sexual ability is because you had some kind of complex relating to your mother, oedipus or otherwise? Maybe it couldn’t be solved by counseling, I don’t know if you tried that route. You blamed it on being gay, but is it possible that you are wrong? Lots of heteros become impotent either temporarily or permanently, and it doesn’t necessarily mean their marriage is bad. And even if there no solution because maybe it’s a physiological problem with the man, or maybe it’s because the man has lost his sexual attraction to his wife whose figure has been demolished by childbearing or who has gained too much weight, it doesn’t automatically mean they should divorce. I know some very good looking men with very very fat wives (AND vice versa!!!), who stay together. I don’t know for sure, but the ones I know appear to be very happy and content. I also know several men who leave their fading wives for hotter chicks. Why? Because they want the romance and they lost it with wife number one. Whether it is because of Hollywood or because of their hormones I don’t know, but it’s sad.
And finally, Josh and Lolly, is it possible that your answer to prayer that you should get divorced, was influenced by what you wanted the answer to be? Joseph Smith got an affirmative answer to let Martin Harris take the 116 pages, but still got chastised for it when they disappeared. God “granteth unto men according to their desires.” If you had had a greater desire to stay together as partners is it possible that the answer to your prayers would be different?
I wish you well in your search for romance, Josh, but I don’t think it is a guarantee that you will find it with someone who shares religious faith. You may instead just find blissful sexual fulfilment. As I said, there are gay activists who absolutely insist gay is all about sex. You rejected the comparison to single women who never have sex in this life because they never get a reasonable offer from a worthy and decent fellow. They could certainly find sex, and if they dropped the gospel requirements of a partner, they would increase the chances of finding romance. But I believe that romantic love isn’t number one for them.
There are plenty of stable hetero marriages that never had great romantic love, but happily succeed and flourish anyway. I cut a lot of slack to all the gay people I know who want gay relationships. I don’t condemn them for wanting that. I can’t fully comprehend it because I’m not gay. My point in all of this isn’t that gay relationships are wrong. Maybe they are and maybe they are not. My point is that there is certainly nothing wrong with a gay man and hetero woman, knowingly deciding to marry and have a family. There is great joy to be had in that. I think your first 8-10 years proved it. Divorcing is your business. But your argument for why it HAD to end isn’t convincing to me. If there are other gay men and hetero women who knowingly want to pursue that path, I applaud and support them. From the looks of the comments to your post, it looks like there are lots of them out there. I think it’s awesome.
This was very thoughtful, open, and inclusive. Not attacking. Good thoughts. Thank you for sharing.
I hear some of your points. Namely, people can choose the relationship they want to be in dictated by what they value most. Maybe that is religion, financial security, desire for a traditional framework, companionship, romantic connection, sexual fulfillment, etc, There are tons of reasons to get married and tons of reasons to stay together and tons of reasons to be happy and also irreconcilaby unhappy. Perhaps individuals ask too much out of marriage and hope their partners can give them the impossible. Some needs can be fulfilled outside of the marriage through friendships and social community support. However, some personal values and intrinsic identities can clash with one’s happiness and joyful life fulfillment. Though some marriages are arranged and some are meant for life convenience, Luckily, we live in a society where we can strive for a higher bar of the filament and happiness with our marriage partners. Our marriages do not have to rely solely on convenience and achieving physical substance.
I find it very conflicting that there is not an adequate place for LGBTQ in the LDS faith. I happen to be straight in a very healthy traditional marriage that works really well for me. This does not mean that I am not deeply conflicted by my own faith that excludes and does not allow a safe place for my other brothers and sisters who happen to be LGBTQ. This is their identity that they are born with the same way that I was born with the identity of a straight woman. Change needs to be made.
Jenny, fyi my comment earlier today was actually intended as a reply to your comment but I apparently didn’t place it correctly.
Josh,
In your coming out post you discussed your relationship with your father and how you felt supported by your family growing up. Do you still feel that way? Have your recent decisions affected your relationship at all? That was always the part of your coming out post that struck me, how you said you felt loved and supported by your family. My best wishes to you and to Lolly as you navigate these changes together.
What a beautiful and loving post. I wish your family all the love and goodness the universe has to offer. Thank you for being brave.
Thank you for this post. I had a lot of strong thoughts and emotions reading this. One qoute that stuck out to me:
“Something is very, very wrong with how things are currently set up. I don’t know yet what is right. But, Father, something is so incredibly wrong.”
I am deeply conflicted about the lack of place or belonging for LGBTQ in the LDS faith. I do not think this identity is an “abomination” or “something that must be overcome with faith“ but rather an asset of human nature. Something that cannot be changed or that should be changed. Just like the color of someone’s skin is Beautiful and should not be changed.
How do you reconcile with both strong connections/identities to your faith and sexual orientation?
I am ready for change in the LDS community.
Change needs to be made. If you look closely you will see that changes are in fact being made, really at breakneck speed. Especially when you consider our core doctrine, that we are the children of heavenly parents. That is our true identity, sexuality aside. And what do you do with Eternal increase and worlds without end? It’s not obvious exactly how to fit LGBTQIA into that doctrine, but we are definitely and emphatically headed in the right direction and making progress. I say “we” because “the Church” is “we,” it isn’t “us versus them,” as though “they” are like the black hole back in Washington DC (or whatever despotic dictatorship), we are a church of “common consent.” If I say change needs to be made, I start with ME. I know my attitudes have changed dramatically. And I’m pretty confident if you were born before the relatively recent gay-related social changes you will recognize that great change and progress has already happened both in the rank and file and in the highest leadership levels in the Church. For example, look up the quote “all god’s critters got a place in the choir” from Elder Holland’s talk in April 2017. Ten years ago all jaws would have dropped to the floor. But not today. Today, last April, it was received with joy. God’s way is “line upon line,” patience and perseverance is required, and help from each of us. I see nothing for you to be conflicted about. To borrow from the winter olympics ad, “progress is perfection.”
That being said…I don’t expect to ever fully measure up to society’s expectations and standards. At least that’s how I interpret Christ’s statement “but because ye are not of the world…the world hateth you.” We are a peculiar people. Some might even say we are queer.
Lolly, I was married to a gay man for 5 years. He was a wonderful man who realized his orientation during our marriage. It was so painful being rejected constantly without knowing why. I felt so ugly gross, fat and annoying. But the most painful part was feeling unwanted. We have been divorced for several years and it has been the best thing for both of us. It gets sooo much better. It really does. You both deserve so much. Much LOVE
I appreciate the two of you sharing such a personal part of your life in order to help others through what they are facing. However. I do feel like the blanket statement of “it cannot work for anyone” is just as harsh as “this can work for anyone”. I do not pretend to understand these struggles. But I do not believe that it has to be impossible. That being said, anyone who is in this kind of relationship or contemplating this kind of relationship should not take the decision lightly.
Josh and Lolly, do you think that it’s wrong, and contrary to God’s purposes, for any gay person to marry anyone other than a person of the same sex? If so, how do you think a person can know if he or she is gay or not?
Simple. By paying attention to which sex one is attracted.
If I am attracted to cats, what am I?
Highly abnormal.
That seems unfair, unless you consider being sexually attracted to the same gender “highly abnormal.” I am not the only one sexually attracted to animals. Google it!
Umm, no, I most definitely will *NOT* be googling it!!
Difference is consent. If your cat can verbally consent then you have a point.
Dr. Shades, I’ll put the question a different way: How can a person know that they are *not* bisexual?
The same way anyone knows. They know who they are attracted to. I am attracted to men. I have never been sexually attracted to a woman. It really isn’t hard. (Pun intended)
Do you think that there’s really no such thing as bisexual, or that bisexuals never deny or repress one side or the other, to escape anti-bi prejudice and discrimination on all sides, including their own?
I do believe in bisexuality. I know a number of people who are. That’s why the ex-gay narrative is a sham. Those people are bisexual. But Josh is saying that he isn’t bisexual. Only he knows his attraction and he says he is only attracted to men.
Jim:
Nobody ever said there isn’t any such thing as bisexuality. Your question was, “How can a person know that they are *not* bisexual?” The answer is simple: If he or she ISN’T attracted to both sexes, then that person knows that he or she ISN’T bisexual.
Come on, man. This really isn’t rocket science.
Okay, thanks for the friendly response.
If a person has never been attracted to women, or to men, that doesn’t prove that they never can, or never will, be attracted to any woman, or any man, ever. I don’t think that a person who has never experienced one or another should be stigmatized for considering and exploring the possibility that they might be able to. Certainly they should read the stories of people who have tried and failed, and be warned about the dishonesty, treachery, and destructiveness in some of the ways that people are promoting it, but if they still want to try it anyway, they should not be stigmatized for it.
Besides that, whatever anyone means by “attraction,” or however they think they need to feel, to sanctify a sexual relationship, I think it’s wrong to categorically stigmatize all sexual relationships that don’t satisfy their conditions. How is that different from religious factions stigmatizing all sexual relationships that don’t satisfy their conditions?
Apart from that, the idea that there are some people who are born with an incapacity to ever love any woman, or any man, in a that way that sanctifies sexual intimacy, is so blatantly and shamelessly sexist, and intertwined with racism, that it amazes me that it can masquerade so easily as a principle of social justice in popular thinking.
My previous post was for Tim.
Dr. Shades, thanks to you also for your friendly response.
As I said, the idea that some people are born with an irremediable incapacity to ever have some feelings for any man, or for any woman, that are indispensable for a healthy sexual relationship, looks so obviously sexist to me, and allied with racism, that it traumatizes me to see it passing as a principle of social justice.
That’s my view of it, but let’s suppose that it’s true. Does that make it right for any person, or any alliance of people, to stigmatize all sexual relationships that don’t conform to the conditions that they consider indispensable, whether it’s gender rules, or some kind of feelings? Does that make it right for some people to decide for others whether or not they can ever have a healthy sexual relationship with any man, or with any woman, and under what conditions?
Regarding your first paragraph, having irremediable incapacity to have feelings that are indispensable for a having a healthy sexual relationship is neither sexist nor traumatizing. It’s simply the definition of being attracted to one sex or the other if one is NOT bisexual. It’s not passing as a principle of social justice, either; it’s merely a description of biological reality, much like breathing. Does it also traumatize you to know that some organisms can’t breathe air and must breathe underwater, while others can’t breathe underwater and must breathe air?
Regarding your second paragraph, no, it’s not right to stigmatize all sexual relationships that are consensual.
Dr. Shades, can we have that discussion in a forum somewhere? It might turn out to be a very long discussion.
Sure. Let’s have it on the Mormon Discussions forum. http://www.mormondiscussions.com/phpBB3/
Also, I forgot, I wanted to ask, if you think it’s contrary to God’s purposes for any gay person to marry anyone other than a person of the same sex, can you give some examples of where you see that in the scriptures?
I read the initial Unicorn post five years ago and remember having the feeling, Wow, I hope they can make it.”
I know you will both continue to be wonderful parents to your girls and grandparents to their children.
God Bless you both!
Jenny Hatch
http://www.JennyHatch.com
Josh and Lolly,
I see a lot to love in the stories you’ve been telling us about yourselves, and in the ways you’re thinking and writing about your lives.
If you think that God is calling you to end your marriage, you might be right, but I have some thoughts about that, that I hope you’ll consider.
As I understand it, you see now that your marriage, and the life you were living and planning to live together, were based partly on false premises and/or false hopes, and that both of you have been suffering from depreciating a part of yourselves. For example, Josh depreciating some of his feelings and impulses towards men, and both of you depreciating some of your dreams of, and wishes for, romance in your lives. Those are just examples, I know I might not be covering all of it.
I hope that, if it’s still possible, before you end your marriage, you would consider first giving yourself some time, a few months at the very least, to learn to better appreciate and value the parts of your personalities that you’ve been depreciating, and to practice healthy ways of bringing them out, apart from sexual intimacy; then re-considering the pros and cons of ending your marriage.
You say that what you’re calling “romantic attachment” is not really about sex, or not only about sex. If that’s true, then you don’t need to end your marriage, before you can try pursuing and practicing the parts of your dreams and wishes for romance, that are not about sex.
If you think that’s impossible to do with honesty and integrity in any relationship outside of marriage, without sexual intimacy, then I hope you will re-examine critically your ideas about love, marriage, romance, and sex, in the light of God’s purposes and prescriptions, as you understand them from your own research in the scriptures.
In the 46 years since we married, my wife and I have both fallen in and out of love with each other, and with other people, more than once. Sometimes we pursued romantic relationships with those other people, without sexual intimacy. One of the people I fell in love with was a man. None of that did any harm to our marriage, in fact I think it did our marriage a lot of good. That might also be part of how we learned to be in love with each other again.
Just now, it dawned on me that for many months, both of you have been facing the possibility of no sexual intimacy for the rest of your lives, if you stay married. Actually, I could see that, in itself, as something God would allow as a reason for ending your marriage. Still, I hope that you will give yourselves some time to learn to appreciate and value the parts of your personalities that you’ve been depreciating, and to practice healthy ways of bringing them out, apart from sexual intimacy, before you end your marriage. Your marriage might deserve giving it that chance.
At this point you might not see any possibility any more, of any honest and healthy sexual relationship with each other, ever. I know you’ve allowed a lot of time for it already, but have you really examined and explored all the possibilities for that, that you think your marriage, and the divine institution of marriage, deserve?
I see a possible misunderstanding that might get in the way of that. Being in love with a man, and being in love with a woman, are not interchangeable. Sexual feelings for a man, and sexual feelings for a woman, are not interchangeable. Sexual intimacy with a woman can never be everything that sexual intimacy with a woman can be, even apart from physical features. There’s a wealth of experience and possibilities with each, that are not interchangeable.
Exploring the possibilities of an honest and healthy sexual relationship between you doesn’t mean trying to somehow transfer Josh’s romantic and sexual feelings for men onto Lolly. It might not mean Josh learning any new feelings for Lolly that either one of you would recognize as romantic or sexual. It means starting over from scratch, zero, with your new self-honesty, and appreciating and valuing the parts of yourselves that you’ve been depreciating, to consider and explore what possibilities there might be for honest and healthy sexual intimacy with each other, and for romance outside of marriage, that might resolve the issues without ending your marriage.
I just discovered a typo in my previous post. I wrote “Sexual intimacy with a woman can never be everything that sexual intimacy with a woman can be …” That should have been “Sexual intimacy with a woman can never be everything that sexual intimacy with a man can be …”
Also, when I wrote about you depreciating parts of yourselves, rather than “depreciating,” a better word might be scorning.”
——
I looked again, and if I’m reading right, there hasn’t been any sexual intimacy between you for more than a year and a half now, and Josh is now committed, possibly permanently, to an ideology that says that sexual intimacy with any woman, ever, under any circumstances, is wrong for him, and always will be. I see that as reason enough, in itself, to end your marriage, with God’s blessings.
Your attempts to sanctify that decision, with popular romance and identity ideologies for example, and sweeping generalizations about what’s healthy or unhealthy for all people, makes me wonder if you’re still depreciating some parts of yourselves that you associate with sexuality. If so, then ending your marriage might not solve any problems for either one of you, and not be at all worth the price you and all your family will pay for it.
The following is a duplicate of a comment I accidentally posted on an old post that I was reading. If you want to delete one or the other, please delete the other one.
—-
Josh and Lolly,
I see a possibility now that my warnings to you five and a half years ago, about your depreciation of gays, and the support you might be needlessly providing to anti-gay interests, did not go as unheeded as I thought they did at the time, so I won’t give up hope of being heard this time.
As long as you stay married, and Josh continues to abstain from same-sex intimacy, you might never feel as welcome and at home in gay activist circles as you would like to be, and you might never have the credibility that you would like to have, as counselors for gays. There might also be other social and economic disadvantages in staying married, for one or both of you, that I haven’t thought of, or even that you haven’t thought of.
I hope that you will consider those, and any other possible social and economic disadvantages in staying married, and consider again whether your marriage, and the divine institution of marriage, are worth giving up feeling as welcome as you would like to be in gay activist circles, having the credibility you would like to have as counselors for gays, and any other social and economic possibilities you might have to give up to stay married.
If you think that your marriage, and the divine institution of marriage, might be worth giving all that up, then it might be possible for you to find honest, healthy, and lawful ways to build a sexual relationship with each other on some new foundation, and find romance outside of your marriage, without scorning Josh’s same-sex attractions or any other part of either one’s sexuality, your hopes and wishes for romance, or any other part of either one of you.
I’m not excluding the possibility that ending your marriage really is the best, for you and for God’s purposes. It might be reasonable at this point already, for you to decide that the lawful possibilities for building a healthy sexual relationship with each other on a new foundation, and finding romance outside of marriage, are just too slim to make it worth trying, and if so, I see that as reason enough, in itself, to end your marriage. I just hope you will give thoughtful consideration to what I’ve said, before you do that, if you haven’t already done it.
Also, again, please, I implore you, for your own sakes, make a public correction and apology for your sweeping generalizations about what’s healthy or unhealthy for other people, now, instead of waiting another five years, after more needless damage has been done that you will regret, if you truly do see and regret the damage you could easily have avoided, if you had taken my warnings, and the warnings of others, more seriously five and a half years ago.
Josh and Lolly, maybe I should explain what I mean by “needless” support that you’ve provided to anti-gay interests, in the ways that you’ve promoted your story.
You’ve painted it as a story of a gay man in a picture-perfect marriage with a woman. You could have presented it just as honestly, in fact more honestly, as a man with unwanted same-sex attractions, in a marriage with a woman, no more or less happy and healthy than some of the best marriages without same-sex attractions. That story would have done all the good your story might do, or even more, without being used nearly as much in harmful ways as your story has been.
Josh coming out publicly as “gay,” rather than “afflicted with same sex attractions,” was deceptive, whether he intended it that way or not. His reasons for that might have been perfectly innocent. Possibly at the time he was not aware of the gay-affirming implications, among gays, of coming out as “gay.”
No one would have seen anything newsworthy in a man married to a woman, coming out as a person with unwanted same-sex attractions. What made the story go viral, and what gave it so much damaging potential, was the implication that Josh was a gay-affirming person, which, if I’m understanding you correctly, you are now admitting was false.
Both of you scorned the warnings about that, even from me, in spite of all the good you saw otherwise in my posts. Will you scorn all warnings again, from me and others, this time about the potential for harm in your dogmatic, sweeping generalizations and insinuations about what’s healthy or unhealthy for others, in love, marriage, romance and sex? Your silence on this disappoints and distresses me.
All it would take, to detoxify this post, would be to recognized and retract the dogmatism in it, and to say what you’ve always said before, that you don’t mean to say that your way is the only way for everyone. It would be even better if you would read, and help publicize, some of the stories that people have been telling you about here, of people with experiences different from yours, or who read them differently.
Also, honestly it disappoints me to see you endorsing sexist, essentialist identity ideology, and I’m wondering if you really, honestly believe in that.
It grieves me to see sex prejudices, dogmatic ideologies, and reflections of racism, masquerading as promotion of social justice, and I’m really surprised and disappointed to see that coming from you.
On the other hand, if it’s simply accommodating popular thinking in gay activism circles, to feel welcome there, it makes perfect sense, and I can very well sympathize with that.
Where are the “reflections of racism?” Please point them out.
Jim, nothing in your numerous posts actually makes sense. I think you are trying to sound intellectual but it is coming out nonsensically. And really do you think they are going to read your posts and be like, ‘Oh my gosh, Jim is so right.” Jim, you are also using too many commas. It detracts even more from the not making sense-ness of your comments. I say, hey, white man bizarrely accusing Josh of racism, sit back and listen. Use your privilege for good, Jim. And remember, long sentences using vocabulary incorrectly does not make you appear intelligent.
Dear Josh and Lolly.
I just wanted to make a comment about people expressing happiness, and as you put it, feeling a sense schadenfreude about your decision to divorce. When I learned about this post, I will admit to feeling happy. But it was by no means schadenfreude. When your post went viral on 2012, I was a few months into my own life journey. (I was a Mormon too, and I was busy going through my transition into a more authentic life for myself, which was both an exhilarating and monumentally devastating experience.) I felt a huge amount of sadness, for both you and Lolly, and I have thought about the two of you a lot since then. Firstly, I am by no means happy about the pain that this must be causing you, but I am SO HAPPY about the possibilities that lie ahead for you and the freedom you will feel. I am not part of the LGBTQIA community, but I too was conforming to ideas and ideologies that were harmful for me, and once I came to the realization that I was not broken, and that my feelings and inclinations about humanity and morality didn’t make me inherently evil, the freedom I felt was incredible. Everybody deserves to feel that freedom. My husband and I have been happily married for 20 years, and I cannot imagine a life without the kind of relationship we enjoy. I am sure that the majority of people celebrating this post are doing so for similar reasons and feel no malice.
I wish you and your family all the best and all the happiness in the world, whatever it may look like. The road is long, (I am still trying to figure stuff out), but it will be worth it.
To all those who have reacted incredibly badly to this post in the comments, I want to share with you a lesson I have learned in life: Read and listen with the intent to understand and learn. Do not read and listen with the intent to respond/rebut. We learn nothing by instinctively responding with existing experience, opinions and bias. Seek to understand, and you might learn a thing or two about humanity and yourself.
Im sorry but after reading this piontless rhetoric i must say either the child is inherently wrong or the teaching you really can’t have it both ways… That being said either way the doctrine is false since wete born perfect without sin…
This comment is for Lolly, because I don’t have any hope any more of Josh giving any thoughtful consideration to what I’m saying. If any friend of Lolly sees this, I hope you’ll bring it to her attention.
Josh wrote:
“We’re sorry for some of the things we said in our original coming out post in 2012.”
I don’t believe now that Josh is sorry enough to try not to do the very same things again, to other people, but it says “we,” so maybe you, Lolly, are sorry enough to try not to do those things again, to other people. One of the mistakes you made then was shutting out what people were saying who were trying to tell you, then, everything that you’re apologizing for now: that you were depreciating gays, and telling your story in a way that would have grievous consequences for some of them.
Now, in the very same post where you’re apologizing, you’re doing the very same things again, that you did in that original post: depreciating some people, and telling your story in a way that will have grievous consequences for some of them. Now, again, you are shutting out what people are saying who are trying to tell you that.
You can’t go back and undo what you did then. You can’t even undo what you’ve done now, in this post, but you can help reduce and counteract the damage. If you really do regret what happened then, would it be worth a few hours of your time, to learn what you can do, to help reduce and counteract the damage this post has already done, and will continue to do?
It’s like you are talking so much to find as many reasons as you can to make this ok. The problem is that you are telling yourself half truths and falsehoods.
You are best friends, you have beautiful babies, you’re having sex and you are keeping covenants. Why would you ever talk your way out of this?
My husband is A-sexual and I live in a sex desert wasteland, but that doesn’t mean I divorce him. He is good and kind and he is more of a father to my 5 kids that I brought into our marriage than their biological could ever hope to be. And no, I didn’t know he was A-sexual until after our marriage. Life in this telestial world comes with a million challenges and issues and we all deal with them as best we can with God’s help. Within the bounds that he has set.
God is bound by the same commandments and laws. He would not tell you to live differently than the rest of us. He would not tell you to be unchaste, Josh.
I wish you, and especially your babies the best.
Here’s the flaw in your argument. “I deserve…” So do I but being a heterosexual in a loveless marriage that I fully intent to stick with until one or the other of us dies. I haven’t given up on life because I have really no hope for romantic love. And for the record there are plenty of people who will live and die their whole lives without romantic love. Guess what kids. Its not the pinnacle of life! There is something higher and better and more stable, but I’ll leave it up to you to figure that one out.
Thank you for sharing your story with all of us Lolly and Josh. Your bravery, your faith and your continued love for one another and your children are inspiring. I will be praying for you as you navigate this new world and form an authentic life that honors each of you. God will be with you on this journey. His love never fails. May the peace of God rule in your hearts.
You’re such an inspiration, Josh! I hope all is going well and that you and your family continues to grow and be loved!
You have support out there! If anyone would like to find more support, community, or just some understanding–visit my blog at http://www.liveengayged.wordpress.com.
Thank you.
You’ve brought me back into the church. I viewed myself an inexporibly broken in a state where I would never be able to live up to percieved expectations. I chose happiness instead of the church but even that was an empty hole of a life. To believe I could be making the correct decision seeking romantic fellowship with a male, and still seek the fellowship of my faith I’ve renewed my desire to return to the church as strong as I can.
Dear Josh and Lolly,
How brave you are! I applaud you for this tough decision you made and how open and honest you are about it. Thank you for your apology. It takes courage to apologize. Thank you for sending out this message to the LGBTQIA community who needs to here positive things. I loved the fact that your friend said that being gay is beautiful like blue eyes are beautiful. I have blue eyes and am part of the LGBTQIA community. It is awesome to read something inspiring like this. God bless you through all the hard things and the beautiful things that will come to you. I pray that you will both find the love that God has meant for all people. A beautiful two-sided romantic attachment love. That is what God wants.
You just made me look at my 36-yr marriage differently. We’re both straight, but I have felt unloved for most of it. I believe he married me because he was 28 and had no other prospects, and I may have married him for security, though there was tenderness at first. Attachment. That is what is missing. We have all of the other components you mention having in your marriage. But I regularly say to myself, “He doesn’t love me.” And I wonder if he ever did. And I have had suicidal thoughts more than once, which only an understanding of the telestial kingdom stopped me from following through on.
Karen,
Each journey in life is unique and your journey is your own special path. Seek professional counseling for both you and your husband, don’t just act on what you read here. Life is precious and you need to care mental. I know I don’t know who you are, but know that I feel love for you right now! May the loving God bless you in your journey ❤
Josh and Lolly,
Thank you for sharing your journey so far. You and your family truly are beautiful children of God who deserve love and respect as such. I wanted to share my thoughts here but it got really long so I wrote a response article of my own, which you can find here: https://medium.com/@ashleynance/open-letter-to-the-gay-mormon-and-his-wife-824bbaaa40f7. I’m praying for you as you face the difficult days of transition ahead. You are amazing!
I’m not sure how this sight works. I am not sure if you will see this reply on a post so old. I am not sure if you will have the time or energy to read one of what I am sure is a multitude of responses. But I feel the need to let you know that in some way (although I am not sure if that way is great or small) this article has saved my life.
There is much I want to say, for there are few people I have in my life that I can talk to about this and would understand my point of view, so I would like to apologize for the length and the probably random format.
To start, just a brief explanation of my early life. I was raised by 3 women; my mother, my aunt, and my grandmother, until my adoptive father came into our lives (permanently at 3, I was officially adopted at 7, but these women have always been pillars of my life). My mother gave birth to me out of wedlock and I have never known my biological father. My grandmother is a deeply religious and kind and generous woman. She would give the shirt off of her back to a person in need. She struggled with an abusive husband who left her for her sister and worked tirelessly to raise her two daughters on her own. My aunt is a strong charismatic woman, kind and understanding although can also be a bit caustic, albeit unintentionally. My mother is super intelligent and curious. All three have imparted various gifts of wisdom to me for which I shall be eternally grateful for.
These women have also come closer than any other in convincing me to take my own life. I met my husband about ten years ago. I struggled mightily in silence throughout my teenage years. I have always been head strong and logical. I will do as I like unless you can convinelce me I am in the wrong with logic and reason. For years I was told many of the same things you listed in this post (i grew up Baptist, then evangelical, then non-denominational, and am now an athiest). I struggled with reconciling the ‘fact’ that what I was feeling was evil, a temptation, a trial, an abomination, etc… with the fact that i had no choice in the matter. I could not rid myself of these feelings or completely ignore them.
I went through middle school attempting to feel what others felt. I had a couple girlfriends; but it was more of a social thing. I never got what everybody was talking about. I could appreciate romance. I loved to read and it was in almost every type of cinema. I could understand the emotion. It could bring me to tears. I could talk about it and fake it with the girls I knew. But I never once felt it. And in a very disconnected way I knew I was physically attracted to men. But my environment did not allow or encourage the type of self-reflection for me to even realize I was gay for many years.
When I finally did have an inkling of what I was, it was a dirty and shameful secret. And one that lurked just below the surface. I could not allow myself to reflect on it too heavily for my own sanity. I went through high school abstaining from any deep and meaningful relationships with my peers because of this.
When I was 17, I started working as a child care aid for the local YMCA. While there I developed what I thought was a very strong friendship with my female boss, who was about 40. One night after we had grabbed a bite to eat, we were sitting in her van chatting when she leaned over and kissed me. I was shocked. This was my first kiss, and I felt nothing. I ended up giggling from nervousness and I could immediately tell that was not a welcome reaction. I had hurt my ‘friend’s’ feelings, and I certainly hadn’t meant to. I apologized, and she tried again. And again I laughed.
We parted ways that night quite awkwardly, and I was left with a terrible choice. I would either condemn our relationship, ending in an instant what was a very important part of my life at the time, or I could face reality. Acknowledge to myself and to others what I was feeling and experiencing. It terrified me on some level. Every self-preservation instinct was screaming at me not to say anything. But I have never really been conciously ruled by fear. Not in an ‘I’m afraid’ sense. Caution, yes. It made life easier. I judged the likely outcome of an action and took the least immediately painful path. But I viewed this woman as family, as I did with all of my chosen friends at that age.
I told her the next day. “The reason I reacted that way is because I am gay”. I knew she wouldn’t hate me. One of her other best friends was gay. She was an ‘easy’ person to tell, because I also knew she would keep it a secret. But the act itself was still one of the hardest things I have ever done, because to admit it to her was to admit it to myself. It was making a statement that this is who I am and I cant change it. And at this point I couldn’t ignore it anymore either.
After that, I had to tell my best friend, who was in love with me at the time, and who is still to this day my best friend. She was even the only person in my wedding party or who even attended my wedding on my behalf. She meant the world to me and again, it was the hardest thing i had done. She accepted me and loved me still. It also made our relationship stronger, as certain things began to click into place.
After that i got my first boyfriend. Introduced by my 40 year old boss (I’m sure you can imagine how healthy that relationship was). It didn’t last too long, but will always be grateful for him. It was the start of my journey of exploring and accepting myself. So many things made so much more sense. So many things felt right. I had more than just an academic understanding of romance. I FELT. And that was amazing. But the repression was still there. There was no way i could tell my parents. I felt like God hated me for giving in and living in sin (although we never got so far as actually sleeping together). Eventually things ended. We just weren’t right for each other and I was not in a place to give him the relationship I thought he deserved (he was also kind of a jerk).
After that I came out to more and more people. I had graduated from high school before really starting to publically coming out, and I met a guy that I fell head over heels for instantly. He took my breath away, made me giddy and nervous and want to preen and impress. I would have given him the world 5 seconds after meeting him. And I had no preparation for that. Luckily, there was some misunderstandings along the way (nothing major, but I don’t want to bore you with too many details) and things ended before they really got started. Around this time (I was 18, and so very slightly less concerned about how my family would react) I felt that I had to start telling my family. It was this massive part of my life. A huge part of what defined me. And I shared everything with the women who raised me. We would talk for hours on end ever since I was a little tyke. So I made the decision to call my aunt. My empathetic, compassionate, strong, wise aunt, and cautiously told her about the feelings I had been having towards men. To her credit, she sat and listened. We talked for a bit, and talked about what the bible said about it. She tried to let me know that she loved me. And when we hung up she called my mother. Told her that she needed to talk to me.
I felt so betrayed. I went to her in confidence. A part of me understood that she was trying to do what was best for me, and she was trying to keep my confidence by not explicitly telling my mother what she needed to talk to me about. But to me those were flimsy excuses. My mother put two and two together and came to talk to me. We talked it over. The bible said it was wrong. And so instead of me coming out to my family, it became something I was struggling with. In truth I was, but my parents and family saw this ‘struggle’ very differently than i did.
More time went on. I developed more friendships. Met some amazing people who gave me the support i so desperately needed and craved. No help was forthcoming from my church, if they even knew what was going on.
Some months later i saw a mutual friend that i had added because of a few of my high school buddies (i had graduated by this point). I had never met or spoken to this guy, but i saw a post he had made about being in fort Wayne with his extended family and being angry or depressed. Something moved me to reach out to him. See how things were going and if I could help in any way. He of course had no idea who I was. He responded out of anger and depression to a strange person butting in to his private affairs. I apologized for disturbing him but let him know that if he needed someone to talk to while he was stranded, I would happily be there. So we started to talk.
After he got back we made plans to meet. For him, it was a hook up (there is much more to this story, but it isn’t all mine to tell, so some things will be left out). For me it was a chance to meet a potential friend. Boyfriend was definitely in the cards, but I was so inexperienced. I definitely didn’t plan for anything untoward. So I invited him over to my house. My mom always met all of my friends, so I didn’t think anything of it.
He came over, and my parents met him, and then went out shopping, taking my 2 younger sisters with them (ages 6 and newborn). Nothing happened. They came back home and this boy and I were sitting in my room playing video games. It was getting close to the time I would have to drive him back home, and he pounced. I was taken by surprise, but everything felt so good, and I had been denying myself these feelings for so long and I was starting to come to terms with them, and it felt so dang good. I did not stop him. I didn’t want to. Until I heard the front door slam shut (before we got too far, but far enough for me to be naked). I instantly realized that my mom went outside and looked in my window to see what was going on and got quite an eyeful.
I drove him home and found out upon my return home that i was being kicked out of the house. I had till the end of the week to make arrange.ents with my aunt in Florida. My parents Wouldn’t suffer that kind of influence to be around their little girls. Again, I truly did understand to a point where they were coming from. I had disrespected them in a major way, in their own home. But I was hurt. And when in pain I react in anger. Over the course of the next 3 days I secretly moved all of my belongings out of the house. I was no longer welcome there, but I would not be shuttled off to live in a different state where I knew no one to live in an even more confined box that I had already been living in. I couldn’t do it. And I would not deny myself any longer. After all, the cat was out of the bag.
For the next 6 months I was homeless. Moved from couch to couch, settling in for a month or two in a rickety shack that was quite literally crumbling. No hot water (when there was any), no heat (in the dead of Indiana winter), only one working electric outlet. And the place was infested with bugs.
After that I got my own place with a hellish roommate, and the boy who I got kicked out over.
During my period of homelessness, I tried to go to church with my new boyfriend (the one who accidentally got me kicked out). He was a steadfast atheist, but was willing to give it a shot for me. I sang in the worship team at my church. I love music. I love to sing. Another huge part of my life. After the worship part of the service was over, my boyfriend and I sat in the back of the small church where we wouldn’t draw attention to ourselves, and I discreetly (or so I thought) put my arm around his shoulder. Nothing more than that, but the pastor noticed. Later he went to my parents and told them I was no longer welcome on the worship team.
I was devastated. I had lost my family, my home, and my church. Every last refuge I had had been taken from me. But I was young and optimistic and determined. I would not be deterred from the life I had chosen. Not at that point. Not any more. And never again.
Skip forward ten years. That boy and I were engaged. My family and I had reconciled for the most part, although they would have nothing to do with my fiancé. My fiancé and I decided to get married this past April 1st (at the time we decided, we didn’t realize that it was easter….oops). I put off telling my family about it for weeks. I didn’t want to tell them. I didn’t want to go through th à t conversation because I was fairly certain I knew how it was going to go. But my fiancé and my new I laws strongly suggest I invite my mother, worrying that I would regret it later if I didn’t. It didn’t take too much pushing. In truth, I wanted my mom to be at my wedding. I wanted her to be happy for me, even though i knew she would never agree with it. So i called.
First she asked if it was an April fools joke. When I told her it wasn’t she said she wished it was. Now my mother wasn’t being intentionally mean. She meant it sincerely, but she didn’t say it to hurt me. It did though. I cried. I sat there on the phone crying silently trying to carry on about mine and my sister’s upcoming birthdays, cursing myself for getting my Hope’s up when I knew better.
But I understood. As much as it hurt, I knew where she was coming from. I thought it was enough to know that she loved me, but that she didn’t agree and never could/would. She even said she thought we were ready married. We hung up the phone with me ending the conversation by letting her know that I wouldn’t let this affect our relationship.
And then I woke up the next morning from texts from my grandmother. The kindest, most calm woman I have ever met in my life, telling me that I could never be forgiven for sinning against the holy spirit, that I was damning myself, that I was breaking my MOTHER’S heart and that I needed to fall on my knees and beg the Lord for forgiveness.
In that moment I truly broke. I was in the shower and loudly sobbing, a 27 year old man in grief. It felt like my family had died. Like somebody had pushed their hand inside my chest, pulled out a bunch of strings and just severed them for the rest of my body. I adored these women. They were like saints to me. I was broken.
This was 3 days before my wedding. The wedding itself was supposed to be a small affair. I didn’t really have anyone coming except my best friend who flew out from Colorado. My sister in law performed the very brief ceremony. My husband’s best friend and her husband were there on my husband’s side. My in laws were also present. It was wonderfully small, and quick, and heartfelt and sweet. I was welcomed in to their family openly. The extended family listened to everything over the phone, so they were there in spirit at least. It should have been one of the happiest days of my life. And don’t get me wrong. In almost every way it was.
Basically, all of this is to say, this article found me in a very rough spot. And while I’m not sure I agree on all of the technicalities, i wanted to say how much i respect what you’ve done. This took incredible strength to do it so publically. And i was able to read this at a time where it well and truly helped me out of a pit i was helplessly sinking in to. You so eloquently made some points that really struck home that I wish I could now share with my family in one final attempt to get them to understand me. It’s certainly made some things much clearer for myself. Again, thank you.
Sorry for the vast length, I did not realize that was a comment. I thought that was more of an e-mail kinda thing. My bad…
OMG David, don’t feel bad for the post! Your story is beautiful and brought me to tears. Bless you for finding the strength to carry on with your life. I wish you all the best 🙂
blog loaded on my phone ..
http://setv-now.blogspot.com/2017/10/set-tv-is-better-than-kodi-iptv-service.html
Thank you. I was 16 when you posted your first piece. I had been outed to the congregation by my mother, without my knowledge or consent. Countless leaders tried to use your story to “persuade me away from sin”. It broke me, made me question myself and frankly, made me feel even worse than I already did, because I thought I just wasn’t strong enough to power through. Thankfully, good friends that were not part of the church pulled me back from the ledge.
Now I read this update in the home my husband and I share, out and proud and content, and crying openly over this post. I hope you get to experience the pure joy that loving yourself as a gay man brings, and I hope you find a partner to share it with, because it is indescribable. I wish nothing but the best to you, Lolly, and your family.
So glad you made it back from the ledge William. Best wishes to you and your husband 😊
@Victoria
Baby, did you even read the whole thing???? He made it very clear that this was not a spur of the moment decision, has done plenty of research, and has tried very hard in his relationship with Lolly for 15 years, I’m pretty certain his and Lolly’s decision is a pretty safe one, plus he’s not even leaving them entirely, all of his kids still have a dad and Lolly still has her best friend. This is coming from a pansexual nonbinary person who still struggles with faith everyday, his and Lolly’s words inspired me and touched my heart because I went through the same struggles, denying who I am just to have my sexuality rear it’s head whenever I made new friends growing up. I was taught that it was wrong to like girls and that I was going to be sent to hell and, oh, that I had no chance of being happy with someone. Josh deserves a chance to be legitimately happy with someone and you’re telling him to stay in A relationship with someone he’s not attached to in that way, to continue denying who he is, and to most likely kill himself, ruining his daughters lives and Lolly’s life because then they have to deal with the emotional aftermath of him committing suicide. They’ve spent months making their decision, let these two consenting adults make their own decisions about their lives, please.
Some people might see this, and other stories of grief from trying to change gays into straight people, as proof that it’s impossible for any gay person to have a happy and healthy marriage and/or sexual relationship with any person of the opposite sex, ever, under any circumstances. I’m not sure that anyone really believes that, but it they do, I disagree. What I think those stories illustrate, that people need to know, is that no matter how sincerely they try, and no matter what kind of counseling or other help they get, some people will never stop yearning and longing for romance and sexual intimacy with a person of the same sex. That doesn’t always mean that it’s wrong for them to marry a person of the opposite sex. It means they should not base their hopes for success in marriage on losing any of their same-sex attractions or impulses, ever. Personally I think it’s wrong for people to even try to get rid of those attractions and impulses. I want people to learn to welcome and value them. However that may be, I think it will almost always end in grief, for anyone to base their hopes for success in marriage on being able to change any part of either person’s personality, including their sexual attractions and impulses, or lack of them.
Hi Josh,
I know that this was a difficult decision to come to and that you didn’t come to the decision lightly. I do however more relate with your original post than this one and believe that your decision has been based on the influences of the LGBT community. Here is an article that I found that I strongly feel is the essence of what you originally shared about your Same Sex Attraction. I do not make a judgment about you and know that you have been through a serious hardship involving your mother and her death. My heart goes out to you and I know that God loves you as his son of God just as he loves me. I still hold to a belief that there is always choice, and we can choose. That is one of God’s greatest gifts, our ability to choose. Though I am a heterosexual male I have many friends who struggle with same sex attraction and I myself struggle with a sex addiction. Though we have these desires and predispositions it does not mean that it is who we are or dictate what we have to do, we choose who we are and what we do. Here is the article that I was referring to earlier in my comment: https://www.fairmormon.org/conference/august-2012/navigating-the-labyrinth-surrounding-homosexual-desire
Me thinks Josh has probably read that article.
Benjamin, you point him to an article, wich was written 2 months after his coming out as an unicorn, and where Josh is mentioned as an example that this works, and where Josh’s picture is also in the video-picture? :-)))
nice article
[…] Everyone! Email___Dr_Mack @yahoo .Com, Thanks to dr_mack for bringing my Lover back just in 3 days […]
So, what should I say in my e-mail to Doctor Mack?
This was a beautiful heartfelt post. My professor had wanted me to read the coming out article as an example of how people of an LGBTQIA orientation can still conform to heterosexual church standards, but I saw this post. She wanted to leave your story in a place that made her feel more comfortable with it but I am glad I looked farther and found this. For myself I’m still deciding what my life path is. I came from an LDS family that was highly judgmental of the gay community and thought we knew everything. Now that I’ve moved out and met people of all walks of life I see that this world is not black and white. Blogs like yours are amazing to read because instead of mudslinging and accusatory remarks it’s an honest, real, life experience.
Everybody who reads this is gonna have an opinion. Rather than a criticism telling you what you should or shouldn’t be or do, I leave you a thankyou note for being honest. <3
Dear Josh&Lolly
I can’t say I am not sad and disappointed when I knew that you two are getting a divorce. Back in 2012, I was dating my husband(who also has same sex attraction), and I searched ALL over the internet for help and support. Even though I am a Christian, I was most encouraged and inspired by you guys. Our decision to marry was definitely not based on your testimony, but you surely played a part in it. I just want to share where we are right now and what we have been through. We have been married for five years, have a baby girl, it has been amazing five years and we are grateful everyday how blessed we are. In our first year of marriage, we struggled with our sex life. But when we realized how stress and expectation was ruining it, we adjusted well and we are thriving in our sex life even after we have kids:) I know five years is really not a long time, but we are hopeful to see us being together till the end.
I can see why Josh and Lolly are struggling so much because they had never experienced romantic love for each other. In our case, we are romantically attracted to each other since we started dating, so it has not been an issue. Every marriage is so different. Just as Josh and Lolly getting married dose not mean every homosexual person can marry opposite sex, them getting a divorce dose not mean all mixed-orientation marriages cannot work.
Anyways, I want to thank you Josh and Lolly for so openly and genuinely share your journey, I know how much courage it takes, I cannot imagine me and my husband being so out in the public. You guys have such beautiful hearts and I trust that in every stage of your life you are trying and living your best. I do not know why God brought you together and then tear you apart. But I know that He will continue to lead you two and your beautiful family.
“I can choose faith.”
Sounds like the same thinking process, behind “I can choose to be straight in my life”.
You either belief or you don’t – everything else is make-believe and in some sense the same kind of pretending as you did during your marriage. That may sounds harsh at first, but think about it.
If your church/scripture was already wrong about this so very important thing about life… what else are they wrong about? What other negative things have affected you … and with you I mean definitely both of you. Surely that thought has entered your minds.
Anyway if that’s the case there are people there for you at https://www.recoveringfromreligion.org/ I truly hope that this divorce will help you both stepping out in the world and out of your insular and ultimately hurtful lifestyle, most of all i hope your children aren’t sucked into that.
josh, you talk a lot about yourself and how you’re embracing your LGBTQ identity. good for you but don’t forget the damage you’ve done to lolly. you’ve deprived her of SO MANY THINGS that you’re now deciding to pursue. when you made the decision to marry her, you also chose FOR HER this life of loneliness and absence of romance and devastation to her self-esteem. i don’t see any signs of learning or remorse from your post.
sometimes, love is not enough when you lack decency.
Your story is honest, difficult, inspiring, heartbreaking, ultimately hopeful. Thank you for sharing it. Many years ago, I married a man with a gay past, not really understanding what that would mean for our marriage. We separated and divorced after three years. I was left with a level of discomfort around LGBTQ identity. It had been a source of pain for me. I saw it as “other” even as I aspired to be an open-hearted, accepting, non-judgmental human. When I read Lolly’s words:
Why am I, as a straight person, entitled to reciprocal, requited romantic love while an LGBTQ individual is not? I am not sure how a straight person can look at a gay person and say, “I deserve love, but you don’t! If a straight person doesn’t get romantic love it is an injustice. Everybody deserves that kind of love, if you’re straight. But gay people? Well, that’s another story…”
my perspective shifted from “other” to “shared” (as in shared experience of all humans). It pains me greatly to see the judgmental nature of many of the comments posted here. Clearly, Josh and Lolly are illuminating their experience as an act of compassion and openness. Some would say courage. Anyone reading can take their words to heart, or not. There is no need to express how right or wrong they are. Josh and Lolly are a couple, a family, spiritually centered. They are driven, at least in part, to live lives of integrity as examples to their children. If everyone made as strong an effort to live honestly, authentically, informed by love, imagine the world we would have. (Hint: it would be better!)
Wow. That is hard. I am recently divorced, too, though not for the same reasons. I am sorry for all the haters whose comments probably only add to the difficulty of the situation. I know from personal experience, that even when baring your soul in an open and honest post, you still can’t possibly share all that is in your heart. I know there must be so much more that was taken into consideration than can be written here. And I know there are feelings you have that cannot be put into words. No one can know what this is like unless they have walked in your shoes. I hope you have continued peace as you work through the layers of joy and grief that come after a decision like this. Blessings to you and your family.
Hi Josh,
I have followed your blog for a long time and I wanted to tell you that I am so incredibly happy to see that you now see that you are not flawed as a human!!! (I mean, of course, we’re all flawed). But I mean that you are whole and perfect as a gay man. I know divorce is very painful, but I think this will open up so much more opportunity for joy for both you and Lolly. A huge part of who you are can now be alive in the world – and the world will benefit from it.
Much love to you and your family.
Do you have any problem bothering you?
Do you want to win the lottery?
Do you have any illness?
Are you depressed?
Do you need healing?
Do you want to bring back your ex?
Or you need to conceive etc.
I bring good news; Dr Ilekhojie the great psychic/spell-caster will help you. He is very good in spells, so he is recommended
from far and near. Talk to him today, he will
be able to help you. You privacy is placed
Strictly confidential. Email him on: gethelp05@gmail.com don’t die with your illness, voice out…you deserve to be happy!
Greeting to everyone that is reading my comment, All Thanks goes Dr Amigo, for helping me to restore my happiness back again, i was married to my husband, and we were living fine and happy. it come to an extend that my husband that use to love and care for me, dose not even have my time again, until i found out that he was having an affair with another woman in his working place, i tried to stop him, all my effort was in-vain suddenly he divorce me and went for the woman. he live me with three of our kids, i cry all day i was in pains and sorrow, and i was looking for help. i read a comment on how this grate spell caster called Dr Amigo helped a lady to bring her husband back home after 7yrs of break up , and i also saw so many comment how Amigo help people with his love reuniting spells. so i decided to contact him and explain my problem to him, he did a love spell that make my husband to come back to me and our kids and never think about the woman in his working place. Google his name as Dr Amigo online love spell caster to review his article.
gentleman 22 new in this world, looking for a crossdresser or new half for long term relationship. I’m tall, slim, athletic, handsome, passionate guy. Thank you to contact me, and introduce yourself.
My ex-boyfriend that I want to get married to left me 4 weeks to our wedding for another girl, When I called him, he never picked my calls, her deleted me on her face book and changed her relationship status to Single. I lost my job as a result of this because I can’t get myself anymore, my life was upside down and everything did not go smooth with my life. I tried all I could do to have him back to all did not work out until I met Dr,Mack on a forum. I explained my problem and all that I have passed through in getting him back and how I lost my job, so Dr Mack told me her is going to help me. I don’t believe that in the first place but she swore she will help me out and she told me the reason why my boyfriend left me and also told me some hidden secrets. I was amazed when i heard that from her, she said she will cast a spell for me and I will see the results within 48 hours. To my greatest surprise my boyfriend called me at exactly 2 days and apologies for all he had done, he said he never knew what he is doing and her sudden behavior was not intentional and he promised not to do hurt again. It was like I am dreaming when I heard that from him and when we ended the call, I called and told her my boyfriend called and apologized, she told that I haven’t seen anything yet, she said I will also get my job back in 3 days’ time. Within 3 days’ time my Director called me at my place of work that I should resume working immediately. My life is back into shape, I have my boyfriend back and we are happily married now with 1 kids and have my job back too. Robinson.buckler is really powerful. If we have up to 20 people like her in the world, the world would have been a better place. she has also helped many people to solve many problems and they are all happy Sharing the Testimony of her great work now. I am posting to the whole world to help me thanks her and for anybody that is interested in meeting Robinson.buckler for help. You can email her via her email id Robinson.buckler(@) yahoo (.) com
This year 2019 has been so blissful to me for God has given me a reason to live happily again after been heart broken for 3 months when my husband neglected me and went back to he’s mistress. I suffered and went through all types of emotional tortures for i couldn’t get any help to get my man back not until i was refereed to Lord Zakuza by my co-worker who gave me her full assurance about him that he can be of help to me. I got in touch with Lord Zakuza and i hearken to his words and followed the instructions given to me by him. Could you believe that my husband got back home within 12 to 16 hours as said by him and today, my marriage is restored & i’m so thankful, appreciative & grateful to God for using Lord Zakuza to get my man back after 3 months of broken marriage. Is there anyone out there who needs to get back to he’s or her lover back or needs any help of any kind? Then, i suggest that you get in touch with Lord Zakuza now through his Email ID: doctorzakuzaspelltemple @hotmail. com for more information. God bless you sir.
Hi guys, I’m sure you do not look at comments on this story cuz it’s so old, but I just want to thank you for sharing this. Honestly it is kind of left me in no man’s land with my feelings. I was raised in a very strict family, and have not had a lot of personal interaction with the homosexual community. I loved your club unicorn post and since then have followed you on and off. I just read through this post as well as the post from Lolly. I’m not quite sure where I stand right now, but you have definitely opened my eyes to understand that homosexuality is not something I can understand or judge because I do not experience it. I don’t know if that really makes sense, but this post has been really enlightening.
I am not (have never been) Mormon, but I was raised Christian and this article really made it click why (and how much) it’s so heartbreaking when my mom acts like the only problem with her denomination’s stance on LGBT folks is that people are *mean* to us sometimes. It doesn’t matter how nice you are if you’re still telling me that it’s fundamentally wrong for me to ever expect a fulfilling life or a fulfilling relationship. It doesn’t matter how nice the pastor is or how compassionate he sounds if he still thinks it’s better for me to suffer than to make a decision about my own body that affects nobody except me. If he’d still rather I be dead than trans. If he’s still willing to say that from the pulpit.
Also I’m cracking up at all the weird ads peppered into the comments here.
Throwing away eternity and breaking covenants for a mess of pottage. I’m so disappointed. I’ve referenced you many times.
You’re acting like romance and sexual gratification are the only things that matter, when in fact, eternity matters much, much more.
You’ll be in my prayers.
What would you say is a fix so that LGB+ members find the attachment you talk about and still live the up to the our eternal purposes? If a straight couple isn’t feeling attached, should they get a divorce? Are sexual urges the only way we feel attached to people? Like, do I really not feel attached to my friends unless I am sexually attracted to them in some way? I am trying to understand without sounding judgmental or mean, so I hope this is coming across okay.
My first thought when I saw this was, “FUCK YOU.” Fuck. You.
I trusted your story. And you were a part of my story marrying a woman and living a heterosexual life. I will continue to make my way without you.
After reading (nearly) the whole post, I want to say there are many generalizations here that I disagree with or don’t identify with necessarily while I do understand the fundamentals (I have always been attracted to men).
I feel like you went from being a know-it-all unicorn to being a know-it-all bat. To have the balls to talk so confidently in your first post then so confidently in the opposite direction now. Maybe just stop for a while. I feel you extending your experience on others now in the same way you did before. I still sense that conviction that comes from a religious person believing something is “true” because you think you heard it from god. It is a kind of divine arrogance I’ve recognized more and more after drifting away from faith.
I will say, I fully accept your story. I believe it is true. I can be happy for you. I agree only somewhat with the conclusions you have made.
Lastly, I plan to check back in 7-10 years for your post on leaving the church. That relationship feels as tenuous and full of denial as your marriage had the first time around.